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Warlock Cataclysm Preview Discussion - READ THE FIRST POST


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#21 Calidus

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 11:23 PM

With the changes to refreshing dots, if you know that in a encounter that you will have to switch off the boss and kill an add for a 1 minute(think heroic Professor), couldn't you spam your dots to get a dot that to last 1 min(or whatever you need it to)? It would become humanly possible to keep 100% uptime on dots even with target switching, for long periods of time. This would push warlock dps in game much closer to what simcraft estimates.

#22 scaffold

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 12:26 AM

The PVP and PVE ramifications of the idea of stacking DoT durations indefinitely are a sign of it being too good to be true.

BTW - the new edited info about Hellfire being meant as Demo's SoC/RoF is worrying, because it requires being in melee...

#23 turturin

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 01:16 AM

BTW - the new edited info about Hellfire being meant as Demo's SoC/RoF is worrying, because it requires being in melee...


It seems like they'll have to give demo some threat reduction for at least AoE situations (if not accross the board). AoE in melee range is a lot riskier in general with the lower aggro threshold, and emphasizing hellfire will pretty much make it manadatory to do so.

#24 KraxisSingular

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 01:18 AM

BTW - the new edited info about Hellfire being meant as Demo's SoC/RoF is worrying, because it requires being in melee...


More like Blizzard has noticed that Demo locks like to Meta-Immoaura and stand in there. So why not make it so Hellfire works for them? If it is dangerous, I'm sure Seed and RoF aren't going to be exclusive, so you can use them when needed. If the three AoEs are going to be exclusive, then yes, worrisome. But since there was some comment about Elemental Shamans dropping Magma and the totem being teleported or some such to the target, I would think they know that meleerange is a good option, but never a good requirement for casters.

#25 Myrryr

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 01:26 AM

One thing I'm curious about is Ruin and what's going to happen to it if the current Destro Mastery remains the same. If you keep Ruin the way it is, it's going to make Crit and Mastery almost the guarenteed top stats for destro because the crit damage bonus from Mastery stacked with Ruin will be impressive, to say the least. Coupled with Soul Burn+Searing pain in pvp, your crit burst potential would be ridiculous.

EDIT: If they DON'T keep Ruin, then I ponder what will become of SBolt for affliction locks? Will they eventually make ALL shadow spells besides Shadowburn in the Affliction tree and make say Pandemic increase it's crit damage or will they simply no longer allow SBolt to crit for double damage?

#26 tr0tsky

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 01:40 AM

With the changes to refreshing dots, if you know that in a encounter that you will have to switch off the boss and kill an add for a 1 minute(think heroic Professor), couldn't you spam your dots to get a dot that to last 1 min(or whatever you need it to)? It would become humanly possible to keep 100% uptime on dots even with target switching, for long periods of time. This would push warlock dps in game much closer to what simcraft estimates.


It's going to be the same as Everlasting Affliction is now. You can't spam refresh it and increase the duration.

#27 Nisall

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 10:07 AM

It's going to be the same as Everlasting Affliction is now. You can't spam refresh it and increase the duration.


That is the way I read it as well. When you recast the DoT it goes back to its original starting timer kind of like glyphed Pestilence does with diseases.

#28 tuberqlosis

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 02:07 PM

For those wondering if imp's new DoT will help Affl's Drain Soul, I doubt it. Soul Siphon increases the damage done by Drain Soul by "your Affliction effects on the target". The Imp's DoT will probably be located in the "Demon" portion of the spell book, meaning it is not an Affliction effect, so it should not improve DS damage.

On a largely untouched subject of the changes, I am interested in seeing the CD on Fel Flame. If Fel Flame's CD is lower than the CD of Immolate (untalented) or UA, it will be "Haunt 2.0". Keeping Glyph of Conflagrate (BTW: is the Wowhead item linking broken atm?), immolate will only fall off after the duration expires. If you can FF Immolate before it expires every time, then it'll function much the same way corruption currently functions. It wouldn't change destro's rotation too much, but swapping an instant for Immo's small cast time would really make the spec more mobile (huzzah for GCD-running).

For the reason above, I feel FF will be on a long CD, probably longer than the duration of UA and untalented Immolate (>15sec), but shorter than Molten Core 3/3 spec'd Immolate (<24sec). The ramifications of permanently, instantly being able to refresh UA in PVP are too large for Fel Flame to have a CD less than 15sec.

Most of the lock changes are PVP-oriented. Yes, there is the very welcome change of being able to DPS and CoElements for PVE, but isn't being able to BoAgony + CoExhaustion just as alluring?

- Who will be our primary targets for Dark Intent? I'm guessing Shadow Priests (DoT based DPS) and Holy Paladins (Flash Heal). If neither exist in the raid / party, who would be our secondary targets?


Can FoL HoT crit? I don't think it can, and I don't think Holydins are based on HoTing enough for Blizzard to implement the "HoTs now natively benefit from crit/haste" like they did for locks/priests. You'll notice that Shammies, with riptide, were not given the HoT clause. Now, I expect Resto druids to get that clause (assuming their HoTs cannot already crit). In a typical encounter, they throw out more HoTs than any other class I know of throws HoTs or DoTs, making them PRIME candidates for this buff. Assuming your raid doesn't have a resto druid tho, I imagine affl locks will trade DIs much the same way mages trade FM.

#29 Cangiz

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 03:46 PM

If dots are benefited by haste, yet do not clip on renewal before expiration, at what point is the haste going to be applied. I am thinking heroism/black magic here.

For example you just apply UA and you have 0 haste on, then you get heroism + black magic and reapply UA instantly, would you get the full 15 second duration to be fully hasted at that point, or would it only be the last ~1 second of the duration(essentially the amount added be recasting UA instantly). I am going to assume that it automatically applies the full nature of haste to the entire debuff, which means that during heroism phases we are going to be recasting dots very early to apply a hasted dot.

Also the implications of the current dot refresh process is that refreshing dots as LATE as possible is going to provide the highest dps possible(due to it adding the most time to the previous dot), however missing a refresh is going to cost you half a dot tick(on average depending on haste), severely lowering DPCT of the initial dot cast. Therefore it is much safer to refresh a bit earlier to ensure you "clip" your previous dot probably with 0.5-1.0 seconds left rather than trying to do 0.1-0.4.

#30 KraxisSingular

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 04:16 PM

Tuberqlosis, Fel Flame was specifically mentioned to be a Demo tool. It isn't unreasonable to expect that tree to lower the cooldown to fit with Immolate one way or another, likely with Molten Core. I would find that to be a cool way to make the spell good for all more or less, but an integral part of one spec. I can easily imagine Affs going to pop Fel Flame to keep UA running as much as possible.

Also, the desription doesn't mention HoTs, while that is a logical conclusion. If it applies to all heals, then it is certainly good enough for any healer. Would be interesting if both it and Focus Magic would stack on one player. But I tought the most common target would be other Warlocks, Affs in particular. Two Afflocks doing what many Mages do already, and Rogues for that matter. But Spriests certainly make for excellent targets too.

Cangiz, your confusion is understandable, but it is really simple.

Corruption has a duration of 18 seconds. If it gets Hasted enough to get another tick in that time it will get that tick. If it is slightly lower than that it will still last 18 seconds, but the last 2 seconds+ will not actually do any damage. Basically DoTs and HoTs that are affected don't need to end on a tick.
Lets say you manually apply Corruption during the 'dead time' near the end, then the 'first' tick will happen at the time it should had the first application been extended. In a sense you can get a tick almost right away if your Haste is nearing an addition of a new tick. This should lower the 'need' to get Haste plateaus as if you apply the DoTs/Hots correctly you will not lose any ticks at any point due to Haste not addint new ticks yet.

#31 tuberqlosis

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 04:30 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but corruption currently updates haste and SP with its refresh. I will use this model going forward.

To match your example, The initial cast of UA would have 0 haste, creating a 15sec DoT, ticking every 3sec. While that DoT is ticking, you get Herolust + a Black Magic proc. Your current UA will NOT update to your new stats. While these 2 buffs are up, you reapply UA by either casting UA or Fel Flame, before the previous UA has completed. The UA buff on the target now refreshes to 15sec (full duration), but now it would tic every (3 - haste factor) sec, instead of every 3. As soon as you cast the new UA, the stats applicable to that cast apply (haste, SP, crit, +%dmg). If you refresh a DoT before its duration expires, the new stats apply*, overwriting the old DoT.

* -- This implies they fix crit and +%dmg rolling modifiers with the new DoT/HoT mechanics.

The advantage of refreshing a DoT early now is to fish for the extra tic. DoT durations are continuous, but the actual damage tics are discrete. This leads to instances where a dot does not tic at the end of the duration. For instance, if UA lasts 15sec, but the hasted damage tic rate is 2.8sec, then you will get 15/2.8= 5.357143 tics per UA duration. Unless Blizzard programs something to have an "ending tic" at the UA debuff completion for 35.7143% of the damage of a full UA tic, you don't actually gain any benefit to having haste on your DoT. However, if you clip the UA duration AFTER the last full tic (2.8*5 = 14sec), then the next full tic would occur earlier. I think at this point its easiest to create a timeline:

Unhasted UA, no clipping:
0.0 UA debuff lands on target
3.0 UA tic 1
6.0 UA tic 2
9.0 UA tic 3
12.0 UA tic 4
15.0 UA tic 5

Hasted UA, no clipping
0.0 UA debuff lands on target
2.8 UA tic 1
5.6 UA tic 2
8.4 UA tic 3
11.2 UA tic 4
14.0 UA tic 5
15.0 UA falls off

Without clipping, your hasted UA has not done any more damage than if you had a non-hasted UA.

Now with clipping:
Unhasted UA, clipping for max tics:
0.0 UA debuff lands on target
3.0 UA tic 1
6.0 UA tic 2
9.0 UA tic 3
12.0 UA tic 4
15.0 UA tic 5
15.0 UA refreshed (you precasted PERFECTLY, for simplicity)
18.0 UA tic 6
21.0 UA tic 7
24.0 UA tic 8
27.0 UA tic 9
30.0 UA tic 10
30.0 UA refreshed (you precasted perfectly, for simplicity)
33.0 UA tic 11
36.0 UA tic 12
39.0 UA tic 13
42.0 UA tic 14
45.0 UA tic 15
45.0 UA falls off

Hasted UA, clipping for max tics:
0.0 UA debuff lands on target
2.8 UA tic 1
5.6 UA tic 2
8.4 UA tic 3
11.2 UA tic 4
14.0 UA tic 5
14.0 -15.0 UA refreshed (you still have 1sec left on the debuff, giving you some room to refresh)
16.8 UA tic 6
19.6 UA tic 7
22.4 UA tic 8
25.2 UA tic 9
28.0 UA tic 10
28.0 - 30.0 UA refreshed (you can refresh UA anytime between 28sec and 30 sec and still continue propagating the "time-to-tic")
30.8 UA tic 11
33.6 UA tic 12
36.4 UA tic 13
39.2 UA tic 14
42.0 UA tic 15
44.8 UA tic 16 **Your clipping efforts have FINALLY paid off, you have earned yourself 1 free tic of UA!
45.0 UA falls off

By clipping your UA, you have compounded your "time-to-tic" to "earn" some damage you would have if you didn't clip your DoT. However, if Blizzard implemented an "end-of-DoT" tic, triggered by the DoT expiring for the percentage of time to another tic, clipping would not be required and its only benefit would be 100% uptime.

However, the reason you don't want to clip dots now is because you lose DPCT of the DoT you casted and you lose the DPS of doing one of your other abilities, but rolling that "time-to-tic" after the last tic of your previous cast would not cost you DPCT (the previous spell's tic's are all used up, indicating maximum DPCT), and you have actually increased the DPCT of future casts (which manifest when you achieve a "free" tic of the DoT).

#32 Kulaid

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 04:51 PM

the only problem I see with the model you've made is that currently Corruption drops off the target whenever the duration timer is less than the tick timer.

For example, if your Corruption is ticking every 1.5 seconds, and it ticks with 1 seconds left on the duration, it immediately falls off the target because that last second will not contain any ticks.

If this behavior is replicated by all our hasted dots in Cataclysm, that will make refreshing them much trickier. Hopefully Blizzard will change it so that dots will remain on the target to be refreshed until the duration timer runs down to zero.

#33 tuberqlosis

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 04:54 PM

Tuberqlosis, Fel Flame was specifically mentioned to be a Demo tool. It isn't unreasonable to expect that tree to lower the cooldown to fit with Immolate one way or another, likely with Molten Core. I would find that to be a cool way to make the spell good for all more or less, but an integral part of one spec. I can easily imagine Affs going to pop Fel Flame to keep UA running as much as possible.


I'm not saying it won't be used almost on cooldown as an instant alternative to standing to cast either UA or Immolate, but that it's CD will be longer than the duration of UA or untalented Immo to prevent those two spells from becoming "Corruption 2.0". Keeping Immolate uptime for Fire & Brimstone and uninterrupted Conflag-on-CD spamming is the pillar by which the Destro rotation is built upon. Its a welcome improvement for making Destro more mobile. However, turning Immolate into the Destro version of Corruption, without having to stand still to refresh it (Haunt vs. Fel Flame) for the entirety of a PVE or PVP encounter is game-breaking.

But I really do like your idea of having a deep demo talent that reduces the CD of Fel Flame to allow Destro to roll Immolate. The difference is, Immolate is not a pillar for Demo, it is actually outside of any synergy with the spec and is merely maintained due to its high DPCT. This is why you will see some people dropping Immolate during Demo's execute phase. Allowing it to roll changes very little for Demonologists, they merely swap a cast-time Immolate for an instant Fel Flame.

Also, the desription doesn't mention HoTs, while that is a logical conclusion. If it applies to all heals, then it is certainly good enough for any healer. Would be interesting if both it and Focus Magic would stack on one player. But I tought the most common target would be other Warlocks, Affs in particular. Two Afflocks doing what many Mages do already, and Rogues for that matter. But Spriests certainly make for excellent targets too.



Dark Intent (level 83): Increases the target's chance for a critical effect with periodic damage or healing spells by 3%. When the target lands a crit, you get a buff to your damage for 10 seconds. This effect stacks up to three times.


I take the underlined portion to mean "periodic damage spells or periodic healing spells". I don't think any class/spec has more ____ Over Time effects rolling at any given point than a resto druid. However, increasing raid DPS by trading with another affl lock may be better than the personal increase by giving it to a resto druid. For instance, you don't see mages giving FM to a holydin over another mage, they trade for the synergy both receive by trading.

As for giving DI to a non-affl lock: Give it to another, more appropriate spec. Affl has 1.167 (repeating) unhasted tics per second of periodic damage (corruption @ 3sec/tic, UA @ 3sec/tic, CoA @ 2sec/tic), Demo has 0.6833 (repeating) unhasted tics/sec of periodic dmg (corruption, Immo @ 3sec/tic, and CoD @ 60sec/tic), and Destro has 0.35 unhasted tics/sec of periodic dmg (Immo, CoD). I'm sure there are other classes, like Spriests, that will have a higher number of periodic tics/sec than Demo or Destro. Decreasing your chances of proccing the buff by nearly 50% by giving it to a non-affl lock is really depressing. And that's not counting if the Siphon Life portion of Corruption counts as a "periodic healing" effect, which would increase Affl by another 0.33 (repeating) unhasted tic/sec.

#34 tuberqlosis

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 07:58 PM

the only problem I see with the model you've made is that currently Corruption drops off the target whenever the duration timer is less than the tick timer.


Yes, but currently Haste also decreases the length of the DoT. In Cataclysm, "Haste will no longer act to reduce the DoT's duration, but rather to add additional ticks." From this change, I assume they will allow the debuff to remain on the target even after all applicable ticks have been applied. This would then ENCOURAGE dot clipping, but only after the last applicable DoT tick has applied, so as not to reduce a cast's DPCT. Blizz's other option is to implement an "end tick": when the debuff expires, any percentage of a time-to-tick remaining gets converted into a percentage of a full tick of damage. This would neither encourage nor discourage clipping, as if the DoT never expires (it gets clipped after the last discrete damage tick), the "end tick" is not applied and rolling continues, but if the DoT falls off, it is not a DPS loss (ignoring losses due to < 100% uptime).

#35 zacheryah

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 02:01 PM

It will be interesting to see what the cooldown on felflame is, for two reasons :

In case its lower then 15 seconds so we can refresh unstable affliction with it, not only does it gives a nice added direct damage, because its an instand cast, its ideal to perfectly time it before the final tick, in case dots now work with the mechanism tuberqlosis suggests.

Second, with felflame, and soulburn+unstable affliction, we get alot of utility to use on fights that involve alot of running.

#36 tr0tsky

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 02:18 PM

I'm not sure about writing off non-aff locks as DI targets just yet. Consider that both of these specs will have another DoT available to them with the introduction of banes.


Banes are just replacing CoA and CoD. It's not an extra dot, it just allows them to use a utility curse in addition to a DoT.

#37 tuberqlosis

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 02:40 PM

I've already accounted for Banes in my ticks/sec calculations. For affl, its "CoA @ 2sec/tick" (or BoA in cata) and for Demo and Destro its "CoD @ 60sec/tick" (or BoD in cata). And that's even assuming the "tick" from CoD/BoD will count as periodic damage and will be able to crit in Cata.

<Snip>
Suggestive (below) has corrected me in that FM does proc off of periodic crits. Section removed.

#38 tuberqlosis

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 07:06 PM

Corruption (and perhaps UA), procs FM. You need to stop theorycrafting a spell you have no information on.


I stand corrected by Suggestive here, and backed up by a WoW forums post here.

#39 Kurremkarmerruk

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 01:26 AM

I have a concern about how haste will affect our dots in cataclysm, in particular affliction warlocks' dots. If haste increases dot duration, but we are automatically refreshing many dots (corruption through everlasting affliction, UA and BoA through pandemic sub-25%, and UA sometimes through fel flame), doesn't that make haste useless for some of our key spells?

#40 Cybsled

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 06:14 AM

Well for alot of locks, shards are pretty much just soul well, summoning portal, and soul stone "ammo". Revamping the system so they essentially become a valuable resource that has an impact across a wide array of spells is a good idea to mix things up and add a little more variety to the class. I'm curious to see how they will impact our core use spells, though.

The succubus knock-back definitely makes her the "vs. melee" pet of choice now in PVP, although it will probably be tricky to position her in such a way where the guy will get knocked back in the direction you want them to. Doesn't her AI currently make her goto the target's backside? Knocking them towards you would defeat the purpose ;)




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