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Warlock Cataclysm Preview Discussion - READ THE FIRST POST


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#41 Eyana

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 12:39 PM

I wonder how long it takes to regain the 3 shards when out of combat. If you will gain 3 shards immediately after leaving combat keeping a warlock in combat seems to be an important tactic in pvp.

#42 Kashii

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 02:47 PM

I have a concern about how haste will affect our dots in cataclysm, in particular affliction warlocks' dots. If haste increases dot duration, but we are automatically refreshing many dots (corruption through everlasting affliction, UA and BoA through pandemic sub-25%, and UA sometimes through fel flame), doesn't that make haste useless for some of our key spells?


Haste won't increase DoT Duration - just shorten the time between tics. So the effect of Corruption will always last 18 seconds (unless refreshed) - but x amount of haste will decrease the time between tics by y seconds. This does seem to mean that there will be certain plateaus where haste will give you an additional tic of damage within the DoTs duration.

However, the idea with things like Fel Flame and the change to Pandemic and the fact that we cannot clip DoTs is that DoTs will continually be up.

It seems to me that everyone is putting a lot of emphasis on not clipping the last DoT tic. The new non-clipping mechanic seems bigger to me. It means that if we are moving (which happens in a lot of fights) we have more choices than just hitting Life Tap. We can also refresh DoTs (by recasting or using Fel Flame) without worrying that we are overwriting any tic. If you are in motion, it would be benefical to refresh corruption at 10 seconds in (for example) just as it would be to refresh it at 17 seconds in.

It's not just about the last DoT tic.

#43 Spellia

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 04:57 PM

The succubus knock-back definitely makes her the "vs. melee" pet of choice now in PVP, although it will probably be tricky to position her in such a way where the guy will get knocked back in the direction you want them to. Doesn't her AI currently make her goto the target's backside? Knocking them towards you would defeat the purpose ;)


The Ability is not an Auto-Attack style attack, allow me to quote a blue on the topic:

Whiplash works similar to Freeze on the mage’s Water Elemental. It requires a targeting reticule. It isn’t just a melee ability that the succubus uses at-will.

Source

So you will be able to use it at range, and target EXACTLY how to use it and where to push the melee. Something like pushing them off cliffs or off platforms for Arena comes to mind.

#44 Bonestorm

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 06:47 PM

I wonder how long it takes to regain the 3 shards when out of combat. If you will gain 3 shards immediately after leaving combat keeping a warlock in combat seems to be an important tactic in pvp.


I can't imagine they would regen that quickly, leveling/questing would just become non-stop instant soul fire spam.

#45 Anachronism

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 07:51 PM

I find myself wondering also about which spec will be most reliant on the new Soul Shard system as opposed to others. If, for instance, Blizzard decides to make Drain Soul the primary Soul Shard regeneration mechanism for the expansion, then that would mean that Affliction warlocks would have a disproportionate amount of Soul Shards at their disposal during the less-than-25-percent phase on bosses than, say, a Demonology warlock spamming Soul Fires or a Destruction warlock carrying on as usual. I can't help but think that this might make "empowered" Affliction spells less powerful in their empowered states than comparative Destruction or Demonology spells will be in their respective empowered states simply because Affliction warlocks would have quite a few more to use than in the other specs. Perhaps Blizzard might change the mastery bonus effects to address this, such as: "Demonology warlocks regenerate Soul Shards one percent faster for every point in the Demonology tree" or something like that.

#46 Naforce

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 10:06 PM

I find myself wondering also about which spec will be most reliant on the new Soul Shard system as opposed to others. If, for instance, Blizzard decides to make Drain Soul the primary Soul Shard regeneration mechanism for the expansion, then that would mean that Affliction warlocks would have a disproportionate amount of Soul Shards at their disposal during the less-than-25-percent phase on bosses than, say, a Demonology warlock spamming Soul Fires or a Destruction warlock carrying on as usual. I can't help but think that this might make "empowered" Affliction spells less powerful in their empowered states than comparative Destruction or Demonology spells will be in their respective empowered states simply because Affliction warlocks would have quite a few more to use than in the other specs. Perhaps Blizzard might change the mastery bonus effects to address this, such as: "Demonology warlocks regenerate Soul Shards one percent faster for every point in the Demonology tree" or something like that.


You can definately expect to see either a new spell, or a change to the useage of drain soul so that it matches the usefulness of the current evocation for mages. That being said, in the beta something like this might be a fact, but I have a hard time seeing it go live.

#47 ksb1082

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 07:06 AM

One thing I'm curious about is Ruin and what's going to happen to it if the current Destro Mastery remains the same. If you keep Ruin the way it is, it's going to make Crit and Mastery almost the guarenteed top stats for destro because the crit damage bonus from Mastery stacked with Ruin will be impressive, to say the least. Coupled with Soul Burn+Searing pain in pvp, your crit burst potential would be ridiculous.

EDIT: If they DON'T keep Ruin, then I ponder what will become of SBolt for affliction locks? Will they eventually make ALL shadow spells besides Shadowburn in the Affliction tree and make say Pandemic increase it's crit damage or will they simply no longer allow SBolt to crit for double damage?


I beleive they have said that with the mastery system there is almost no need for passive increase spell damage by X% talent. All those empty spots would allow them to move around specific talents between trees, its plausible that the talent gets moved into the Affliction tree, being as destruction has become fire focused and will probably become even more focused.

#48 tuberqlosis

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 08:50 PM

I can't imagine they would regen that quickly, leveling/questing would just become non-stop instant soul fire spam.


Aren't they removing the shard component of Soul Fire? The only thing keeping it from becoming the "go to" spell for Demo/Destro in Cata in all cases is it's long cast time. Backdrafted SF spamming might become a valid tactic now, we'll have to see if the Cata talent shuffle supports this or not. Personally, I'd be a fan of this because the destro rotation has gotten a bit stale compared to its Demo and Affl counterparts.

#49 Burberri

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 11:26 PM

* All warlock damage-over-time (DoT) spells will benefit from crit and haste innately. Haste will no longer act to reduce the DoT's duration, but rather to add additional ticks. When reapplying a DoT, you can no longer "clip" the final tick. Instead, this will just add duration to the spell, similar to how Everlasting Affliction currently works.


Perhaps I am over analyzing this but I am looking at the precise way this is worded.

It says you can no longer clip the FINAL tick. Which is to say you can clip the 2nd to last tick or the tick before that. It also says that it will work SIMILAR to how everlasting affliction currently works. Meaning that it won't act exactly like Everlasting Affliction.

The way it is being described where you refresh the duration and it keeps ticking makes sense, but I question how that is any more intuitive or enhances the dot mechanic function now available. It is likely, particularly when you have Bane of Agony and UA ending at the same time in conjunction with haunt needing a refresh that you are going to lose one of the 3 dots.

In light of that, and based on the language above it seems to me that what will happen is that casting a dot will increase the duration by the dot length up to a maximum amount. Such as for immolate which is a 15 second dot, casting it at 2 seconds remaining will increase the duration to 17 seconds, but casting it at 5 second remaining will increase the duration to 18 seconds. This will prevent clipping the last tick, as well as act similar but not exactly to everlasting affliction while preventing running up 2 minutes of the dot on the boss to start the fight.

the other thing I found interesting is that Fel Flame is specifically mentioned as a way for demon and destro to refresh immolate, but UA is also mentioned without affliction. However, fel flame is instant cast and UA is not. Given that Fel flame does damage + refreshes UA versus just refreshing UA, it seems very much an affliction tool above 25% mob health.

The other oddity with fel flame is that by necessity its cool down will be less than 15 seconds. Granted Shadowburn is getting a buff to the execute phase, perhaps enough to make it worth working into the rotation for destro which is rather bland from start to finish. But in this sense it seems like it is essentially the same spell, and so I wonder if we are going to see them share cooldowns ala dragon breath and cone of cold.

#50 Grappas

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 06:01 AM

I would think that some of the issue with clipping would be solved if the application of a dot would cause instant damage equal to one tick. This way, clipping or not, there would be damage induced and an unwasted gcd.

#51 Neil.Reynolds

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 05:01 PM

I was/am hoping that Fel Flames has no cooldown, none was mentioned. Everyone seems to assume it will have one; I'm curious, why?

Warlocks are missing (perhaps intentionally) a direct damage spell spammable while running that doesn't have a cooldown. If it did less damage than the other filler spells it wouldn't supplant them. Spamming it to keep UA up would be a dps loss over using the proper filler, so it wouldn't make PvE or PVP "too simple," and it would be very useful.

The fact that corruption was not refreshable after the last expected tick has always seemed to be a bug to me, and I hope it won't be extended to all of the other DoT. I would have preferred if the spell would do no damage after x seconds and was non-renewable after x seconds, that the debuff would report it would last for x seconds more, instead of 18 after being renewed. I spent a few days trying to add code to quartz to reflect the correct values once, and then switched to destro as less annoying.

I don't see the changes in clipping as "simplifying the game too much," since refreshing a DoT too early will still result in a lower dps than someone who does it perfectly. Fixing it so that you can refresh a DoT after the last tick, but before the debuff drops off would improve that, making the best dps the person who waits till the last moment to extend their DoTs and getting in more filler spells per encounter.

#52 Burberri

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 06:02 AM

Fel Flame (level 81): Quick-hitting spell dealing Shadowfire damage. This is similar to the mage ability Frostfire Bolt, in that the lower of the two resistances (in this case shadow and fire) on your target will be used for calculating its damage. Additionally, Fel Flame refreshes the duration of Immolate and Unstable Affliction. Our goal for Fel Flame is to provide a spell that's good for mobility and for use by Destruction and Demonology specs. Also, did we mention it uses green fire? Yep. Instant cast.


Good for mobility does indicate spamable. The fact that it is dual-school also seems to indicate a need to be able to use it during a single school lock out. that also leans toward spamable.

Instant cast however means it isn't spamable unless it does minor damage or limited by a energy/rage/rp mechanic. Given however, that in order for it to be of any value whatsoever to demon and destructon warlocks it MUST do more damage than immolate's opener, it is unlikely to be spamable unless they plan on changing immolates mechanics as 2.5k / 5k+ crits seems a tad much.

#53 KraxisSingular

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 02:14 PM

If there is no cooldown, baseline, then it is equally good for all three specs. Or actually less so for Demo. Aff will pop it to keep UA going, some damage is better than no damage, giving the spec some freedom to pop it slightly earlier than at 'perfect' time. This doesn't fit with the description very well.

I can't see any other possibility than it having a cooldown that is talented down somewhere. Or else there is simply not much that speaks for Affliction to have less value from it.

#54 HDEagle71

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 02:32 PM

I have a question on the DoT refresh that I may be missing.

If the DoT does X% damamage when it run out (thinking spells like Immoliate) what happens in Catalysm when I "clip" before he DoT reaches that last tic?

1) Does this mean the normal damage will continue and not apply the final X% damage when the DoT would have normally run out?

2) Does this mean that the end of the DoT will still exist appling the X% of damage at the nomral duration and then automatically refresh because I casted immolate again before the DoT was up?


I read through most of these but this specific detailed seemed to be missing.


Just curious how people are ready this. I hope item #2

#55 Arkaal

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 04:41 PM

I have a question on the DoT refresh that I may be missing.

If the DoT does X% damamage when it run out (thinking spells like Immoliate) what happens in Catalysm when I "clip" before he DoT reaches that last tic?

1) Does this mean the normal damage will continue and not apply the final X% damage when the DoT would have normally run out?

2) Does this mean that the end of the DoT will still exist appling the X% of damage at the nomral duration and then automatically refresh because I casted immolate again before the DoT was up?


I read through most of these but this specific detailed seemed to be missing.


Just curious how people are ready this. I hope item #2


Immolate, with no haste, will last 15 seconds, and deal damage every 3 seconds.

If you re-cast immolate after 14 seconds, you'll effectively have 29 continuous seconds of immolate ticking every 3 seconds.
e.g.
0.0s = Immolate lands
3s, 6s, 9s, 12s = Immolate Ticks
14s New Immolate lands
15s, 18s, 21s, 24s, 27s = Immolate Ticks
29s = Immolate falls off

Make sense?

#56 Kruk

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Posted 14 April 2010 - 12:13 PM

Immolate, with no haste, will last 15 seconds, and deal damage every 3 seconds.

If you re-cast immolate after 14 seconds, you'll effectively have 29 continuous seconds of immolate ticking every 3 seconds.
e.g.
0.0s = Immolate lands
3s, 6s, 9s, 12s = Immolate Ticks
14s New Immolate lands
15s, 18s, 21s, 24s, 27s = Immolate Ticks
29s = Immolate falls off

Make sense?


But if it is true it would kinda force future dot clipping.

If 15s, 18s, 21s, 24s, 27s = Immolate Ticks
and 29s = Immolate fails off
then
a) If you let it fall and cast new Immolate at 29s then next Immolate will be
32s, 35s, 38s, 41s, 44s = Immolate Ticks
44s = Immolate falls off
or
B) If you clip it at 28s then
30s, 33s, 35s, 38s, 41s = Immolate Ticks
43s = Immolate falls off (but you can refresh it at 42s)

Looks like if you want immolate tick each 3s for all fight you should refresh it before it falls off.
Weird, doesn't it?

#57 Bonestorm

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Posted 14 April 2010 - 02:49 PM

From the paladin preview:

• Blessing of Might will provide the benefit of Wisdom as well. If you have two paladins in your group, one will do Kings on everyone and the other will do Might on everyone. There should be much less need, and ideally no need, to provide specific buffs to specific classes.


Looks like getting might on pets won't be a problem anymore. And if they are still planning to revamp the pet buff system and have them just mirror owner buffs, this just removed the only potential issue I could see, as in having to put an AP only buff on warlocks just for their pets.

#58 tr0tsky

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Posted 14 April 2010 - 03:12 PM

Looks like if you want immolate tick each 3s for all fight you should refresh it before it falls off.
Weird, doesn't it?


The example without haste is a bad one because the change is made to benefit haste. Any level of haste where your tick timer divides evenly into the duration will end up being the same as the current situation, refresh-wise.

#59 tuberqlosis

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 02:29 PM

... and the only reason affliction would use it if they have to move a lot or in pvp.


Regardless of FF's CD, Affl will want to use Fel Flame instead of refreshing UA manually for 2 reasons:
  • FF is instant while UA is casted. Regardless of whether you move or not, instant > cast (even when unhasted cast time is 1.5sec, the speed of an unhasted GCD).
  • In addition to resetting the duration of UA's DoT, it will do some damage instantly. Some damage is preferable to no damage by refreshing UA via casting UA.

The only* thing keeping FF from becoming an always-on-CD spell, regardless of CD length, for every warlock spec is FF's DPCT. If FF's DPCT is less than the DPCT of the instant portion of Immolate for Demo/Destro, then demo/destro locks will continue refreshing Immolate the old fashioned way, if FF's DPCT is higher, then demo/destro locks will join UA locks in using FF on CD, only delaying until their current debuff (Immo or UA) is about to expire.

*: This assumes Blizzard fixes the rolling issues with DoTs so that manually refreshing vs. rolling will not be necessary to add proc modifiers like NMIC, 4pt10, TotT, etc.

#60 Demi9OD

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 03:29 PM

I think it is safe to assume crit and damage modifier rolling must be fixed. Otherwise Destro locks will simply wait for a Emp Imp proc and keep an Immolate rolling with 100% crit rate for the entire fight.




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