Jump to content


Photo

WotLK Healing Compendium v3.3.5: Fun in the Twilight with Halion


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
184 replies to this topic

#21 Grouikette

Grouikette

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 15 posts

Posted 18 April 2010 - 09:23 AM

Thanks for you valuable work !
However I have a major disagreement on the following point:

VI.B) Raiding as Discipline (changes incoming)

Raid Healing: Disc is actually a viable raid healer now, due to GCD-based PW:S, Holy Nova and targetable PoH. It doesn't have the sheer throughput of Holy, but if you think you're going to be tank healing for part of the fight and raid healing the rest, Disc is the way to go. Use Borrowed Time liberally to haste your PoH casts, keep PoM on cooldown, and toss off lots of shields if you're in a lull. You can very effectively heal Razorscale or XT by just pre-shielding half the raid in-between the AoE or incoming damage bursts.


That was true for Ulduar, but things have changed a bit since Crusader's Coliseum, and totally changed for Icecrown Citadel.
Raid healing is the main assignment of the Disc Priest (mandatory for 25 players raid, and advised for a 10 player raid, depending on the healers composition). Here are the reasons why:
- Holy Pal do the tank healing job more than twice better than us, because of the holy beacon, their mana efficiency, and their HPS on a single target. Every serious raid assigns Holy Pal on tanks.
- Holy Priest and Disc Priest, when compared in a tank healing situation, are somewhat equivalents: depending on the encounter, Holy can be better (better hps on a single target compared to hps+absorbs of a disc priest, on hard-hitting encouters), or Disc can be better (if you want to absorb avoid spike damages, and if you know when they will occur).
- [PoM+Shield]-spamming Disc Priest is VASTLY superior in a pure raid healing situation compared to the Holy Priest in ICC. That is what I've seen from my personal experience, but you can find the evidences of this statement in the Healing Rankings of WorldofLogs: Disc is 20% to 50% superior to Holy in every ICC25HM, exept for two encounters (Sindragosa were Holy does +40%, and BQL were Holy and Disc are equals). The reason is because of the nature of the encounters. From a TC point of view, the Holy's HPS is better if he keeps a Renew rotation, but most of the times the overhealing % is too high compared to the almost 0% not-absorbing of the PW:S. Only in the encounters were the rad dmg is so high that their is no overhealing from Hots, does the Holy do a better performance than Disc.

For LK, Putricide, and Rotface, the superiority of Disc for raid healing is more than striking.

Hope I could help.

EDIT: I've just seen the "changes incoming" ... sorry if I sounded aggressive ...

#22 serrif

serrif

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 45 posts

Posted 18 April 2010 - 07:18 PM

- [PoM+Shield]-spamming Disc Priest is VASTLY superior in a pure raid healing situation compared to the Holy Priest in ICC. That is what I've seen from my personal experience, but you can find the evidences of this statement in the Healing Rankings of WorldofLogs: Disc is 20% to 50% superior to Holy in every ICC25HM, exept for two encounters (Sindragosa were Holy does +40%, and BQL were Holy and Disc are equals). The reason is because of the nature of the encounters. From a TC point of view, the Holy's HPS is better if he keeps a Renew rotation, but most of the times the overhealing % is too high compared to the almost 0% not-absorbing of the PW:S. Only in the encounters were the rad dmg is so high that their is no overhealing from Hots, does the Holy do a better performance than Disc.


This seems to be an artifact of the collection methodology of rewarding only the first heal. Let's suppose for a second we have a disc priest and holy priest who, ignoring overhealing, can generate identical amounts of raid healing (let's say 10k HPS). Now add in a resto druid who also does identical raid healing ignoring overheals. Finally, let's assume that the amount of healing required is 12k HPS.

In the Resto+Holy scenario, they will be equally as likely to overheal. Thus they will both have 40% overhealing, to make the total healing equal to 12k HPS (6k HPS each). However, in the Resto+Disc scenario, half (for the sake of argument) of the heals from the disc priest are shields, which do 0 overhealing. As a result, there are only 7k remaining damage to split among the two healers. If we assume a 2:1 split in favor of the druid here (based on the remaining unaccounted-for HPS), we would see 2.67K HPS get credited to the disc priest, and 4.33K HPS get credited to the druid. As a result, the disc priest gets 7.67K HPS, and the resto druid gets 4.33K HPS.

Does that make the disc priest better at handling raid damage? Hardly. It just means they're better at sniping heals.

You correctly note that this reverses when there is no overhealing, which seems to suggest that the maximum HPS of a holy priest raid-healing is larger than for disc.

#23 Hegen

Hegen

    In gear/DCT lock pin

  • Members
  • 1540 posts

Posted 18 April 2010 - 09:08 PM

As you noticed, section "VI.B) Raiding as Discipline" is - like many of the sections - still labeled as outdated. Most of these sections were written sometime between the start of Ulduar and ToGC.

The strengths of classes and builds have changed since then due to equipment scaling and of course new encounters, making some non-theorycrafting sections outdated or even useless.

Regarding the description of the discipline healing style - this is a rare case where I haven't agreed with this compendium even at Ulduar times. When healing tanks in 10 man, it was very clear in comparison that as soon as a holy paladin entered the raid, the discipline priest's role as tank healer was over, because he was just utterly inferior. On encounters where it mattered, like Steelbreaker P3, or Thorim hard, not running a holy paladin was a major setback for every 10 man raid.

The role that then existed and in my opinion still exists today, is what I would call a tank healer support. A discipline priest is an ideal solution to smooth a paladin's tank healing by supplying shields, inspiration, and penance for damage spikes. When thinking about beacon's healing delay and renewing beacons now and then, this applies to a paladin healing two tanks, too.

That said, the question is when this becomes relevant, because the first discipline priest in a 25 man raid will surely be tasked to spam shields. So, in my opinion, this niche of tank healer support only applies when running as the second discipline priest in a raid, which currently is a rarity.

Regarding the rewrite of said sections of the guide, I will mostly deal with the raid healing role. The tank healing role will be more targeted towards 10-man where you might be tasked to heal tanks, and the guide just wouldn't be complete without describing how to do that.

- [PoM+Shield]-spamming Disc Priest is VASTLY superior in a pure raid healing situation compared to the Holy Priest in ICC. That is what I've seen from my personal experience, but you can find the evidences of this statement in the Healing Rankings of WorldofLogs: Disc is 20% to 50% superior to Holy in every ICC25HM, exept for two encounters (Sindragosa were Holy does +40%, and BQL were Holy and Disc are equals).


I do not agree with this reasoning. Due to the damage prevention nature of shields, we cannot say disc has more throughput, just because it looks better on meters. It is, however, a valid argument to say a shield of size X is worth more than a heal of size X because it can be applied before the damage hits, making it even better than an instant heal of size X.

This argument alone is enough to make the first priest in a 25 man raid a discipline priest, and for the second priest, things change. So, for the rewrite of these sections, there's no need to get into opinionated territory of who's the better raid healer. The answer is, in 25 man you want both, and in 10 man, it depends on the raid composition and on how much HPS exactly is required. 2-healing BQL as disc with a holy paladin in early 10 man gear and without aura was no fun - at all. You just switched in a 3rd healer because the HPS to do it safely just wasn't there. 10% more throughput did it, however: the same thing today, with better gear and aura, is a piece of cake.

The simple fact is this. We are told to concentrate more. But we can only do that if we are allowed to go considerably faster.


#24 Sgat8516

Sgat8516

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 49 posts

Posted 18 April 2010 - 11:09 PM

I do not agree with this reasoning. Due to the damage prevention nature of shields, we cannot say disc has more throughput.


Since raid dmg for current HM content, is for the most part, a fixed constant; the only variable is how much of that effective healing is done by individual healers.
Example:
Festergut's Pungent Blight.
If this ability is going to do 18k raid dmg per player, x 25 (450k) / number of raid healers (lets say 4, of 6 total).
If the Disc priest shields 15 of those players with a 10k shield (aura isn't ticking during that time), thats 150k of that 450k AoE, that is completely negated (doing 1/3 of the healing, for 1/4 of the healer slots, before the AoE even happens), and that assumes the Disc is only able to get 15 shields up (which would likely be more, depending on raid assignment), and still doesn't figure in the reactive healing done after the fact (Granted, in the above scenario, the disc priest should actually continue to spam shields, because the aura tick is now back, so should continue around where he left off on shield spam, at least until those players recieve healing from the other raid healers, to stabilize the raid).

Does a HPriest have higher sustained HPS than a Disc? Probably not.
Does a HPriest have higher burst HPS than a Disc? Definately.

So lets get a total of HPriest abilities over a 15 sec time
CoH: 4001 (plus crit %, which is +(crit x 50%, or 800 HPS for 40%) = 4801 x6 hits x 3 used
Renew: 3568 per 3 (/w glyph)x 4) / 12 + 2141 Direct = 3330 x 13 casts
PoM: Variable.. Lets say 1 proc per 3sec, which is the aura tick for most fights. 6038 +crit = 7245 x5 ticks
Totals (using that same Putricide HM25 for overheal values):
CoH: 86,418 OH 54.2% = 46,838
Renew: 213,369 OH 65% = 138,689
PoM: 36,225 OH 49.7% = 18,003
Raw Healing: 336,012, EfHeal: 203,503

VS

Disc PW:S Spam: 11.5k PW:S + 20% Glyph of PW:S
PW:S 172,500
Glyph of PW:S: 34,500 OH 48%= 16560
Raw Healing: 207,000 EfHeal: 189,060
(this also doesn't factor Aegis proc's from GoPW:S either, but those are the odd-balls..)
Granted, this is assuming the Holy Priest doing ONLY the exact thing thats the absolutely most effective HPS, and that at all times, when a CD came up, it was time to use that. In this scenario, the Hpriest is also recieving 2/3 of their effective healing, through Renew, which is about DOUBLE the typical breakdown for a Hpriest (typically 20-30%).

And even in the best case scenario, there isn't even a 10% difference from the max HPS of a Hpriest, to the indefinately sustained output of the Disc priest (Disc = blue energy bar vs Holy = I need another Innervate).

#25 serrif

serrif

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 45 posts

Posted 19 April 2010 - 04:24 AM

Does a HPriest have higher sustained HPS than a Disc? Probably not.
Does a HPriest have higher burst HPS than a Disc? Definately.

So lets get a total of HPriest abilities over a 15 sec time
(snip)
Raw Healing: 336,012, EfHeal: 203,503

VS
(snip)
Disc Raw Healing: 207,000 EfHeal: 189,060

I think you're looking at the numbers incorrectly (in using the overall overheal percents to penalize the hpriest). Ultimately the contribution of a healer is what they can do when you have below-average overhealing (aka the stressful parts of the fight). And here is where the raw raid-healing power of an hpriest can come through.

#26 Miarose

Miarose

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 67 posts

Posted 19 April 2010 - 05:50 AM

In regards to the disc vs holy HPS discussion: by not factoring in the DA procs you are also gimping the disc priest out of a significant amount of healing.

Some of my ideas and views on if the shadowfiend glyph is necessary.
We have very few options that really aid us in our minor glyphs. Levitate and fading are typically taken along with fiend. Even if the pet dies only 5% of the time, that's still more beneficial than lowering the cost of Prayer of Fortitude in my opinion. Typically you can avoid letting the pet die, don't use it during Pungent Blight, during LK phase change, ect.
In a perfect world, if you could time it perfectly to have the pet die to raid damage right before his own 15 second life expires, then you would be gaining yourself an additional 5% mana, but raid environments are not perfect vacuums.
"If I was gold capped I'd blow it all on drugs and sex." - Phrozenn

#27 Elimbras

Elimbras

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 477 posts

Posted 19 April 2010 - 11:23 AM

Example:
Festergut's Pungent Blight.


Before Pungent Blight, Festergut hits like a truck, and most healers will be healing the tanks.
I prefer our Disc priest to be also on the tank at that time : shields / divine aegis will smooth a little the damage, the fast flash heal spam will also smooth the health, and inspiration is goodly good when most of the raid damage is physical damage on 1 tank. I can see tanks dying between 2 holy lights casts at that time.
Pungeant blight is not deadly at all if the raid used correctly the spores. It's pretty easy for 1/2 holy priest, and shamys / druids to top up the raid after it.

#28 Guest_Amoenitas_*

Guest_Amoenitas_*
  • Guests

Posted 19 April 2010 - 11:29 AM

I do not see the point of the whole "holy vs disc" discussion. I have two PvE Speccs, one for holy and the other for disc, and also some items to change out when switching speccs. I healed both disc and holy for whole IDs, depending on what was missing. And I can say that that they are nearly equal in terms of hps, each of them with strengths and weaknesses.

Overall, my hps as disc is higher, mostly because of the fact that shields don't overheal. But yeah, disc is lacking burst, I often have the feeling that power infusion + prayer of healing is not enough sometimes. Unfortunately there are only few fights in ICC where I would say holy > disc: Lanathel and Sindragosa (and Dreamwalker boss healing of course). Maybe also Festergut. On every other encounter there is no unpredictable burst aoe that I can't handle being disc and beside the mentioned bosses shields are way better than renew/pom/coh. I'd love to see an encounter with high burst damage like Ignis, XT, Kologarn or Hodir again. These were bosses where holypriests could reach their full potential. Maybe Ruby Sanctum...

#29 Hegen

Hegen

    In gear/DCT lock pin

  • Members
  • 1540 posts

Posted 19 April 2010 - 12:35 PM

I prefer our Disc priest to be also on the tank at that time : shields / divine aegis will smooth a little the damage, the fast flash heal spam will also smooth the health, and inspiration is goodly good when most of the raid damage is physical damage on 1 tank.


That's basically what I called the "tank healer support" role earlier. Festergut is actually a good example for an encounter where this role exists, though only for parts of the fight. Nice one.

I do not see the point of the whole "holy vs disc" discussion.


Yes, and it won't go into the compendium, though mostly for the reason that in 25 man it's a complete non-issue anyway. Regarding pure meters performance, disc is bound to pull ahead anyway, due to the ICC aura increasing in strength. Since disc has a very low overheal quota, my suspicion is that disc will profit the most (on the meters). We have already seen disc move forward quite bit in the rankings since the aura has progressed from 0 to 10%.

In 10 man, however, there is a real choice between disc and holy for raid healing in most raid compositions. The choice can be an interesting one, and it's fully worth discussing which spec effectively provides the most HPS. So, in my opinion, the discussion is still a good one.

The only thing I ask is getting away from a meters discussion.

The simple fact is this. We are told to concentrate more. But we can only do that if we are allowed to go considerably faster.


#30 Elimbras

Elimbras

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 477 posts

Posted 19 April 2010 - 02:33 PM

That's basically what I called the "tank healer support" role earlier. Festergut is actually a good example for an encounter where this role exists, though only for parts of the fight. Nice one.


Another one is Rotface in fact. The OT takes rare burst damage, which disc is king to heal. And disc also has perfect tools to take over MT healing duty when MT healers need to move. In fact, I love this reactive healing part of disc, in order to save tanks. I think it's their best use : no other healer can do it, and up to now, I've not seen any fight where the HP-buffing role is crucial (as it was with Freya).

#31 anyakaschala

anyakaschala

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 27 posts

Posted 19 April 2010 - 10:17 PM

I'm fairly new to disc priest healing, so I've got a couple of questions. I apologize ahead of time is this is the wrong place.

first, Glyph of Holy Nova vs Glyph of Prayer of Healing, I've noticed, at least for me, that I tend to spam Holy Nova moreso than using PoH, thus it would seem a better glyph. Or am I just mistaken and shouldn't HN spam.

2nd, is there a good add-on, unit frame that shows pw:s, etc... on toons. I'm using x-perl, and though it has a shield option on it (purple outline), it doesn't seem to show it. Or is grid or healbot just completely superior?

#32 Miarose

Miarose

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 67 posts

Posted 19 April 2010 - 11:45 PM

I'm fairly new to disc priest healing, so I've got a couple of questions. I apologize ahead of time is this is the wrong place.

first, Glyph of Holy Nova vs Glyph of Prayer of Healing, I've noticed, at least for me, that I tend to spam Holy Nova moreso than using PoH, thus it would seem a better glyph. Or am I just mistaken and shouldn't HN spam.

2nd, is there a good add-on, unit frame that shows pw:s, etc... on toons. I'm using x-perl, and though it has a shield option on it (purple outline), it doesn't seem to show it. Or is grid or healbot just completely superior?


Grid has really nice options to set up showing PW:S, and the weakened soul debuff. I much prefer it over healbot and xperl. There is a summary of how to set up grid in the beginning of this compendium.

As for glyphs, it may just be preference or what level of content you're currently raiding, 10/25, hm's, ect. In 25 man I'll hit my group, generally all healers with a holy nova if we're close, on the move, and just need a little bit of heals/DA procs, ie sindragosa after her grip. I will however often find myself using PoH depending upon my healing composition of the day, especially in 10 mans when with a pally.

Things to take into consideration, what glyph are you giving up to use either of those? Do you flash heal often enough to use the 10% mana cost. Without being able to view your priest, it's difficult to tell if you are using an incorrect glyph, like no penance, or PW:S.
"If I was gold capped I'd blow it all on drugs and sex." - Phrozenn

#33 Staffz

Staffz

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 10 posts

Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:36 AM

The cookie cutter disc spec isn't maximizing the versatility of the disc spec. With current mana levels, there's no reason not to spec renew and grab the renew glyph over the flash heal glyph.

For a long time people have been hating on renew. Granted it's not as good as a druids rejuv, that doesn't make it a worthless spell at equal gear levels.

#34 Sgat8516

Sgat8516

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 49 posts

Posted 20 April 2010 - 03:18 AM

Unfortunately there are only few fights in ICC where I would say holy > disc: Lanathel and Sindragosa (and Dreamwalker boss healing of course). Maybe also Festergut.

BQL
WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay
Sindragosa
WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay

Disc still came out on top for BQL, but slightly below on Sindragosa. But Sindragosa is a special case, has long periods of time where you can't actually cast (HM), with the raid dipping quite low in HP, cutting HoT overheal down 30-40%. Plus the fact of the timing of sequential Unstable Magics, and the timing of Ice tombs (tomb in phase 3 = 10-15sec down time... when the raid is in the most need of healing). But, I'd probably never go Holy for BQL, but I do switch to that for Sindragosa when we have 2 paladin's in the raid.

That's basically what I called the "tank healer support" role earlier. Festergut is actually a good example for an encounter where this role exists, though only for parts of the fight. Nice one.


I would have to disagree with that statement completely (along with the original quoted post regarding the role for that fight).

Why would the disc priest NEED to be healing the tanks for the 3rd inhale phase? You've got 2-3 raid healers, sitting there wanding the boss, from a lack of raid dmg (minus the small bursts from the Vile Gas). There is no raid dmg, so all of those healers should be pouring their healing into the tanks.
The Disc priest is the only one who can effectively heal ahead of time, and do so much more effectively.
A HoT isn't going to save 10 peoples lives, from a 20k explosion and 2 AoE pulses in 3 sec, a PW:S would.

As for Rotface, there is a reason why Disc priest's are topping the healing charts for this particular encounter. Its because 95% of the dmg taken in this fight other than tank dmg, is preventable with a PW:S.

Lets face it, Disc Priest 'tank healers' were never really that strong, compared to all the other classes. Just look at Shaman/Druid healing parses for Dreamwalker. True, those are only 30 sec worth of healing with 30 seconds of downtime, but it just illustrates the gap in the actual tools each class has.
I read a thread one time from the PTR, where they tracked each classes single target HPS with PTR-Premade gear (not ideal, but ehh).
The list went as: Paladin=Druid (Almost identical HPS)>Shaman (around 10% lower)>Holy Priest (another 10-15% lower)>Disc Priest (40-45% lower than the Paladin, but not factoring absorbs, but absorbs would only add another 10-20%.... of total HPS).
The 'niche' role for the Disc priest, was simply healing bursts of tank dmg, not sustained and constant incoming dmg, that current content pretty much exclusively has.
Example:
Ever tank Vezax with a bear druid? ...
I had PW:S's EXPIRE on the MT... on Hard Mode....

Thats the only style tank dmg, where Disc priest's are actually more favorable to tank heal, than a Druid/Sham, but those don't really exist anymore, with the zonewide debuff from ICC (which is fairly standard in all higher content, tank dmg either goes from mostly physical, to almost exclusively magic, or they just hit faster..).

The cookie cutter disc spec isn't maximizing the versatility of the disc spec. With current mana levels, there's no reason not to spec renew and grab the renew glyph over the flash heal glyph.

Why would you use a 12 sec, 10-12k HoT, when a 30sec PW:S would heal for just as much, and last 2.5x as long? Not even counting the 50-70% overheal ratio of standard HoT's, vs 0 overheal value of a PW:S.

Regarding pure meters performance, disc is bound to pull ahead anyway, due to the ICC aura increasing in strength.

Disc Priest's topped those same meter's, in the introduction of ICC, not after the buff came around. The only reason Holy started gaining some of its lost ground when the % Buff became active, was because Disc wasn't getting their portion of that same bonus.
Its more of a matter of Disc Priest's scaling, in general, mainly due to the fact of the huge spellpower coefficient of PW:S to spellpower. But we are getting towards the abolute extremes of gearing (kinda like DPS gets out of control at extremely high gear levels), to the point where we are exceeding blizzards original estimations, entering area's that weren't fully anticipated.

#35 Miarose

Miarose

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 67 posts

Posted 20 April 2010 - 03:40 AM

The cookie cutter disc spec isn't maximizing the versatility of the disc spec. With current mana levels, there's no reason not to spec renew and grab the renew glyph over the flash heal glyph.

For a long time people have been hating on renew. Granted it's not as good as a druids rejuv, that doesn't make it a worthless spell at equal gear levels.


Mana is rarely an issue these days, but when working on fights like Sindragosa HM, I'd much rather have a PoH or flash heal glyph to maximize my heals outside of tombs/unchained. Go holy if you're wanting to utilize renew to its fullest advantage.

And going off what Sgat said, with DA being procced off PW:S glyph correctly now and the ICC buff, bubbles are providing an even larger buffer to any spike damage, random or consistant in fights, disc renews will not do that.

Not to mention, improved flash heal, renewed hope, and grace talents that you forfeit if using renew over flash heal.
"If I was gold capped I'd blow it all on drugs and sex." - Phrozenn

#36 Sgat8516

Sgat8516

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 49 posts

Posted 20 April 2010 - 03:47 AM

with DA being procced off PW:S glyph correctly now and the ICC buff


I try to avoid referencing crit functions, it gets to speculative, and is completely RNG. Getting a 3-3.5k crit with the glyph of PW:S, is only going to be another 1k ish absorb effect, and be completely random. Its a bonus for fights like Lich King Heroic, where 1/2 of even the best geared Disc's shields are getting broken, and then some, by Infests (although that extra bonus hurts more than helps for normal, as you almost never get any Rapture procs....).

#37 Hegen

Hegen

    In gear/DCT lock pin

  • Members
  • 1540 posts

Posted 20 April 2010 - 07:26 AM

The cookie cutter disc spec isn't maximizing the versatility of the disc spec. With current mana levels, there's no reason not to spec renew and grab the renew glyph over the flash heal glyph.


The niche for renew in a disc spec is basically in 10 man, where you have moments where all targets are shielded or have weakened soul and PoM is on cooldown. In that case, renew is an option. In 25 man that never really happens. Which usecase did you have in mind where you would favor renew over Pw:S?

BQL
WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay
Disc still came out on top for BQL, ... But, I'd probably never go Holy for BQL.
...
Why would the disc priest NEED to be healing the tanks for the 3rd inhale phase? You've got 2-3 raid healers, sitting there wanding the boss, from a lack of raid dmg (minus the small bursts from the Vile Gas). There is no raid dmg, so all of those healers should be pouring their healing into the tanks.
...
Its more of a matter of Disc Priest's scaling, in general, mainly due to the fact of the huge spellpower coefficient of PW:S to spellpower.


Regarding BQL: your combat log is another example why it's so difficult to rate performance based on logs. You could have done the encounter with a healer less, and that would have changed the relative amounts healed. Once there's too much healing, the disc priest always wins. You will be easily able to top your eHPS from that log if you are really challenged, but there will also be more leeway for other healers to land their heals. Holy priests are quite easily capable of exceeding effective 10k HPS on BQL.

Regarding Fenstergut, this may be another case where a disc priest can fulfill the tank healer support role perfectly, only he's more valuable as a shield spammer. I will have a look at a few more combat logs, though. There's probably more than one way to deal with that phase, depending on raid comp.

Regarding scaling: disc priests scale well, but the spellpower coefficient is only part of that. We do need that coefficient, because we scale so poorly with crit and haste (at least when we're shield spamming). The fact that most of our healing is overheal free makes our healing scale so well regarding effective healing.

The simple fact is this. We are told to concentrate more. But we can only do that if we are allowed to go considerably faster.


#38 Grouikette

Grouikette

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 15 posts

Posted 20 April 2010 - 11:19 AM

It's a really interesting discussion we have here, about the role of the Disc priest in a raid. Thanks for you comments.

Just to clarify my point: I wasn't discussing the relative value of HPriest vs DPriest at all, but showing that the main assignment of a DPriest on good 25 raid should be:

1) PW:S+PoM spamming on the raid: PW:S on the players that you know will take some damage during the next 30 seconds, PoM on the tank or on a group of players that are close together and that will take some damage.
2) Assist on low health targets with Penance (very useful on tanks)
3) Assist on low health targets with FH if Penance is on CD and this target is affected by the weakened soul debuff and need to be healed immediately
4/5) *insert the use of PoH and Holy Nova here*
6) if everyone is covered by PW:S and not supposed to take dmg in the next 30 seconds and if you penance is on CD, either dps (if everyone is full hp) or heal with FH.

In 10 players raid with a tank healer (best situation):
1 to 3) same as previous
3) renew on appropriate targets (tanks for example) to fill the time gap before the end of the weakened soul debuff on the raid (usually 2 or 3 GCD)

In a 10 players raid without a tank healer, Disc being assigned to tank healing :
1) PW:S > PoM > Penance > FH(/Renew) on the tank
2) If tank is secure, use extra GCD to PW:S appropriate targets (you gain the BT haste buff as a bonus).

I don't think there is much to discuss about the utility of the DPriest covering as many players he can with is PW:S, in a 25 players raid situation. Everyone agrees, and the logs I've pointed show the evidence.
It's true that DPriest performance increases artificially when there is too much raid wipe overhealing for example when there are too many healers compared to the incoming dmg). But still if a raid leader as the choice between totally preventing dmg (via absorbs) or totally healing dmg after it occured, I'm pretty sure no one would chose the second solution, because it's less safe.

As I mentioned before, and as several fellow priests confirmed in this topic, the ICC encounters design makes the raid-PW:S-DPriest spammer shine. And I believe that there is only one encounter (Sindragosa) were the raid doesn't loose much if he doesn't have a DPriest assigned on raid healing.

I think that in the "raiding as a DPriest" we should also mention the use of Power Infusion and Pain Suppression: priority of targets, and when to use it. This is another great utility of the DPriest.

#39 RamonKahn

RamonKahn

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 14 posts

Posted 20 April 2010 - 01:28 PM

In a 10 players raid without a tank healer, Disc being assigned to tank healing :
1) PW:S > PoM > Penance > FH(/Renew) on the tank
2) If tank is secure, use extra GCD to PW:S appropriate targets (you gain the BT haste buff as a bonus).


I would rather use something like PW:S > PoM > Penance > GH (with BT) > FH/Renew on the Tank as PoM and Penance don't consume BT and a 1.5s GH is pretty good.

The list went as: Paladin=Druid (Almost identical HPS)>Shaman (around 10% lower)>Holy Priest (another 10-15% lower)>Disc Priest (40-45% lower than the Paladin, but not factoring absorbs, but absorbs would only add another 10-20%.... of total HPS).

Without even counting PW:S, a DPriest with Raidbuffed ~40% Crit would gain some ~15% HPS through Divine Aegis. And with the PW:S you gain even more HPS. If you are in 10-M and run without a tank-paladin, you could also factor in the 3% reduced dmg to the whole raid. The main Problem of Dreamwalker is that absorbs don't heal the boss. But as absorbs are what creates the DPriest niche and makes him a preferred healer that is fine imho.

#40 Hegen

Hegen

    In gear/DCT lock pin

  • Members
  • 1540 posts

Posted 20 April 2010 - 01:37 PM

In a 10 players raid without a tank healer, Disc being assigned to tank healing :


Right now, in most encounters (exceptions, such as Dreamwalker, exist), I would only assign the disc priest to heal the tank if the other healer happens to be a holy priest.

Of course, if the tank healing job isn't challenging in a given encounter in 10 man, any healer can do it, and personally, I prefer healing without a specific assignment in that case.

The simple fact is this. We are told to concentrate more. But we can only do that if we are allowed to go considerably faster.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users