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WotLK Healing Compendium v3.3.5: Fun in the Twilight with Halion


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#41 Elimbras

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:04 PM

BQL
Disc still came out on top for BQL, but slightly below on Sindragosa. But Sindragosa is a special case, has long periods of time where you can't actually cast (HM), with the raid dipping quite low in HP, cutting HoT overheal down 30-40%. Plus the fact of the timing of sequential Unstable Magics, and the timing of Ice tombs (tomb in phase 3 = 10-15sec down time... when the raid is in the most need of healing). But, I'd probably never go Holy for BQL, but I do switch to that for Sindragosa when we have 2 paladin's in the raid.


You're linking to a kill where you have too much healers, considering the overheal you have.
It was being said here that this is typically the case where Disc shines on meters, because they are better to snip heals.
But shining on meters doesn't mean shining in death prevention. You're setting here at 10k max hps and 70% efficiency, where all other raid healers are at 15k and 40% efficiency. If you go with one healer less, your own effective throughput will not increase a lot, but holy priests (and shamans and druids) will be able to go up to double throughput. I can have less than 25% overheal on BQL, and holy priest have been seen over 10k effective Hps (which is more than your total hps, counting overheal).

In other words, consider the following events. A player a full health is hit by an aura ticking at 3k each 3s. He gets a shield of 12k, and a hot ticking also at 3k every 3s (for 12s). The game system will consider that the shield is fully effective and the hot fully overheal. However, from death point perspective, both would have negated the damage on their own. I agree that preventing damage is better from a death prevention point of view (due to the risk of death damage : you can't heal dead people), but the difference between 12k shield and 12k hot is not that big !
Part of the hot overheal comes from shields being applied on hotted targets.

[regarding Festergut] :
The main question is where your trouble is. If you loose people due to Pungent Blight, by all means, go with pre-shielding (and use correctly raid bubble wall / personnal cd / stance switches / etc.) . That's the most effective way to deal with it. However, if you struggle to keep your tank alive with 3 inhale stacks, then the extra health-buffer and fast heals that disc can provide can be also a huge difference. Once you have 2 paladins, you're not lacking sheer throughput to keep your tank. You're lacking effective health, and disc'tools is a lot better than holy slow great heal or little flash heal to face that problem.
I acknowledge however that healing the tank will hurt your meters, compared to pre-shielding the raid.

#42 Grouikette

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 02:55 PM

Right now, in most encounters (exceptions, such as Dreamwalker, exist), I would only assign the disc priest to heal the tank if the other healer happens to be a holy priest.

Of course, if the tank healing job isn't challenging in a given encounter in 10 man, any healer can do it, and personally, I prefer healing without a specific assignment in that case.


My main point was to say that DPriest is not a main tank healer at the 3.3.3, but rather a raid-wide damage-preventer
However since our goal here is to build a comprehensive guide about the healing Priest, I tried to give some guidelines about one possible assignment of the DPriest.

@Ramonkhan: since I don't take Divine Fury in my Disc build, and since FH receives several bonuses from the Disc talent tree, I still prefer to use FH especially when the target goes below 50% hp, to make my MT healing smoother. I think both solutions are viable, depending on the situation and the talent build. This subject has been discussed somewhere in the forum and if I remember correctly, their was no difference from a TC point of view (needs to be confirmed). The important point is the crits you get below 50%hp because of Test of Faith: massive heals, great DA proccs, and quick heal that is needed.

#43 Sgat8516

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 05:52 PM

Right now, in most encounters (exceptions, such as Dreamwalker, exist), I would only assign the disc priest to heal the tank if the other healer happens to be a holy priest.

That actually only applies to NORMAL version of Dreamwalker. The bosses health deteriorates at a constant rate in Hard Mode, making even the strongest Disc Asborbtions to be 100% effective. The only problem with this, falls in the category of proper tracking and credit being given to the priest, and the fact that PW:S probably doesn't scale with the buff thats given from the portal phase. Granted having a Disc Priest for this encounter is actually very nice, as the downstairs tank healing role fits exactly into what the disc priest style consists of (preventing tanks from getting insta-gibbed from the blistering adds debuff, plus an abom's worms popping up, with all 12 hitting the tank simultaneously.... gibbing a bear druid with 60-70k+ in 0.5 seconds :P).
Your also leaving out the key Power Infusion on the Holy Pally/Resto Sham, that when used just before channeling Divine Hymn, can give them a 50-60% bonus to effective healing for 10-15 seconds.

You're linking to a kill where you have too much healers, considering the overheal you have.


I think you're comparing that report, to normal mode comparisons. I clicked the links of 5 of the 8-9fastest BQL HM 25 kills, and 3 used 6 healers, the other 2 used 5, and in both of the ones that used 5, had double Holy Pally (you either bring a paladin, or bring 2 other healers to heal both tanks, as a general rule).
So its right about equivelant to other kills.

Without even counting PW:S, a DPriest with Raidbuffed ~40% Crit would gain some ~15% HPS through Divine Aegis

30% bonus, to a 40% proc effect = 12%
And thats in the most ideal scenarios. As the DA proc is still only a 12 second buff. Some fights, this would be guaranteed to be used effectively (BQL/Sind/Putricide), but most other fights, DA would have 40-60% chance of expiring before being used (Deathwisper 20second frostbolt volley, Marrowgar bonestorm CD, Rotface the entire random ish encounter, Sindragosa Air phase, ect.
But ehh, again, I don't like including RNG based abilities into discussions, 30 sec long PW:S is typically longer than the majority of the major bosses ICD on ability usage, but 12 seconds isn't.

#44 Elimbras

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 07:00 PM

30% bonus, to a 40% proc effect = 12%


Your crit heals are 40% of your casts, but since they heal for 150%, they account for 0.4*1.5 / (0.4*1.5 + 0.6) = 50% of your total healing amount. 30% addition on it is then a correct 15% addition.

#45 Hegen

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 07:45 PM

That actually only applies to NORMAL version of Dreamwalker.
...
Granted having a Disc Priest for this encounter is actually very nice, as the downstairs tank healing role fits exactly into what the disc priest style consists of
...
Your also leaving out the key Power Infusion on the Holy Pally/Resto Sham, that when used just before channeling Divine Hymn, can give them a 50-60% bonus to effective healing for 10-15 seconds.


My post was an answer to 10 man healing assignments. Heroic or not, I see little point in assigning the disc priest to take portals. In normal mode, it would be ridiculous, anyway. In 10 man, I don't know which healing class or spec would be more ideal in healing the raid (and tanks) while the dreamwalker healers are in the dream (probably 2 in 10 man hc). Shields are perfect to make handling the adds safer, as is having fade available.

As for PI, of course that should be used, timed so as not to interfere with heroism/bloodlust. The same, however applies to a holy priest's glyphed GS (unless that has been nerfed to no longer work at all as opposed to just one priest in the raid). In any case, both PI and GS should be used whether the players are assigned to portals or not.

However since our goal here is to build a comprehensive guide about the healing Priest, I tried to give some guidelines about one possible assignment of the DPriest.


I have nothing against discussing potential roles for a discipline priest, and certainly the guide needs to say "if you are assigned to heal a tank, this is what you do:". That said, we (and as for doing the bulk of the writing now, I) need to concentrate a bit on the more relevant healing roles, as there's lots of work still to do and we don't want to finish when patch 3.9 hits, making everything obsolete. So, for now, describing a raid healing hole as well as a short treatment of tank healer support role should be enough. If we were to describe full main tank healing, then we would also have to discuss special gearing regarding this, so I'd rather leave this out - for now. Let's save that work for 3.9 where disc is supposed to be a real tank healer again. I hope this is okay for everybody.

The simple fact is this. We are told to concentrate more. But we can only do that if we are allowed to go considerably faster.


#46 Sgat8516

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 09:30 PM

Shields are perfect to make handling the adds safer, as is having fade available.

As for PI, of course that should be used, timed so as not to interfere with heroism/bloodlust. The same, however applies to a holy priest's glyphed GS (unless that has been nerfed to no longer work at all as opposed to just one priest in the raid). In any case, both PI and GS should be used whether the players are assigned to portals or not.


Both the shields are highly useful for downstairs healing (like solo healing downstairs Heroic 10m, where as when we used a paladin, one of the tanks would always die prematurely, usually to the worm spawn all hitting 1 tank at same time... instagibbing them).
As for the Guardian spirit, having more than 1 of these in a raid is completely useless. Guardian can only be used on the boss like once every 40-50 seconds, making chaining 2 Guardians impossible. The glyph on the single priest, is enough to pretty much use it on almost every downstairs phase, while a PI, on a Pally/sham, with a guardian spirit up = big green numbers (usable every other downstairs phase, throughout the fight, and is chainable for even more of those 'big green numbers', 2 Disc priest's were used to chain PI's on several of the top HPS parses for Dreamwalker).

As for the general focus of this guide, I'm more or less just pointing out, that both spec's of the Priest, are viable raid healers. More to the point, both spec's are actually much better at raid healing, than they are tank healing.

Here's one of my favorite log parses now, Resto Druid + Disc Priest healing comp for LK10HM! (Resto druid tank healing)
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#47 RamonKahn

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 10:56 PM

30% bonus, to a 40% proc effect = 12%
And thats in the most ideal scenarios. As the DA proc is still only a 12 second buff. Some fights, this would be guaranteed to be used effectively (BQL/Sind/Putricide), but most other fights, DA would have 40-60% chance of expiring before being used (Deathwisper 20second frostbolt volley, Marrowgar bonestorm CD, Rotface the entire random ish encounter, Sindragosa Air phase, ect.


It's 15% as stated above and the point was that you said in the single target HPS comparison, absorbs would only account to 10-20% additional healing, a number that's to low in my opinion. And if the disc is assigned to shielding the raid while occasionally supporting the tank healing with Penance / PoM and stuff, the DA should normally be consumed, especially because it can be refreshed.

I still believe that Holy is better for solo healing downstairs Dreamwalker 10H as you can support the Guardian Spirit. The tank is not really in danger as long as he doesn't have to many worms and the disease at the same time. Still, if you prefer, you can also heal it as Disc.

@Grouikette: You might also count the 2-T10 Bonus which would give even more benefits to Flashheal. On the other side, a GH noncrit would heal as much as a FH crit (but no DA). I just think both solutions should be mentioned, the most important point overall being that PoM and Penance don't consume BT which can be used either for FH or GH or any other spell.

#48 Lanayá

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 12:51 AM

So judging by what I seen, how viable are renew priests in ICC25/10ICCHM and so forth?

I used to renew all the time but then I swapped back to spamming PoH and throwing PoM and CoH whenever they were up in heavy raid dmg fights, BQL, etc.

Could I just focus on renewing two groups and CoHing clusters of people while throwing PoM and the occasional flash heal to keep serendipity up?

#49 Sgat8516

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 04:45 AM

So judging by what I seen, how viable are renew priests in ICC25/10ICCHM and so forth?


HoT's are viable for Holy, to an extent.
I don't care for renew, for a simple reason, its a HoT. Glyph of Rejuv was the worse possible glyph they could have ever invented, it illustrated the hole in resto druid healingl. That glyph, when used, was healing for 2-4% of their total effective healing, which proc'd when they healed someone under 50% hp, and healing for +50%. So, of all the meter padding the druids were doing, they actually were only healing the people that NEEDED to be healed, 4-8% of the time (since glyph was 1/2 the amount they were healing during this time).
Personally I see that as unacceptable (for a priest at least), as thats usually what leads to premature death's. Sure a Flash Heal talent spec, may look slightly lower on the pure meter side, but you'll be spending a lot more time actually healing people that are in danger of dying, instead of sniping that 1k health deficit on 3 other players at 98% HP.

But thats my opinion for Holy at least (Disc though = Bubble Bot w/ Penance spot raid healing as needed)

#50 Withoutrival

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 01:58 PM

I was doing the math of a disc priest's mana regeneration for a friend of mine last night and came across an interesting conclusion that I would like to confirm. No, I am not a priest but I am asking for confirmation of my calculations about priests.

Given the Mana Regeneration Formula shown for 3.1, the value of spirit for a disc priest as a regeneration stat seems diminished due to lack of regeneration OO5SR.

5 x 0.00575 x 0.6 x SQRT(Intellect) x Spirit = OO5SR Mana Regeneration

To get I5SR Regen with Meditation, Multiply OO5SR Mana Regeneration by 0.5.

Assume with MOTW, Arcane Int, and Kings a Disc priest has 2000 Intellect. Solving for the end value of spirit as OO5SR Regen (X), I used the following equation:

5 x 0.00575 x 0.6 x 44.721 = 1.06X

X= 0.8177 (Rounded to the fourth decimal place)

This results in an I5SR Mana Regeneration Value for spirit of 0.4088. Kings increases this value by a factor of 1.1, raising it to 0.4497.

This means that it requires 2.2237 Spirit to amount to 1mp5.

That said, assuming access to all BIS gear, would it be better to use Sp/Mp5 or Haste/Mp5 gems for blue sockets that are being matched to achieve socket bonuses as opposed to SP/Spirit?

#51 The Not So Evil

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 03:24 PM

Also note that Discipline has a talent that increases Spirit by up to 6%, which makes it 2.098 to 1 MP5. A Human gets another 3%, putting it at 2.037 to 1 MP5.

Considering it costs you twice as much for 1 point of MP5 compared to 1 point of Spirit (ie, 2 Spirit = 1 MP5 in itemization), I'd say they are pretty close, and Spirit might be worth it if the fight has any sort of downtime, which many ICC fights indeed has.
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#52 Hegen

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 03:59 PM

5 x 0.00575 x 0.6 x SQRT(Intellect) x Spirit = OO5SR Mana Regeneration


It's actually 0.005575, not 0.00575, if our historical formula is correct.

The end result for discipline is 0,4361 MP5 per 1 Spi @2000 int raid buffed.

The simple fact is this. We are told to concentrate more. But we can only do that if we are allowed to go considerably faster.


#53 Sgat8516

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 05:26 PM

I was doing the math of a disc priest's mana regeneration for a friend of mine last night


Neither.
Disc Priest's main source of their blue energy bar, is Rapture proc's. Its a proc that happens when PW:S is completely used up on our target, the priest gains 2.5% of his max mana back but 'on a 12 sec CD'. This effect, has a flaw though, given game lag, any shields broken from the same instant dmg source, all proc Rapture at the same time (because the game can't distinquish between them). This results in 3-8 PW:S's all proc'ing rapture at once = small innervate (7.5-20% of 37k? mana pool = a lot... everytime LK25 HM does an infest, I go from xx% mana to 100% everytime :P).
As for gemming, a Disc Priest should be basically stacking all spellpower (probably well over the haste cap. crit only has a large impact on Aegis bubbles, leaving just Spellpower). This can cause some issues on fights, where the number of rapture proc's are limited to 1-2 per ICD, in these scenarios (IMO) its best to use endurance trinkets, since they are easier to switch out.

#54 Hegen

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 05:41 PM

This effect, has a flaw though, given game lag, any shields broken from the same instant dmg source, all proc Rapture at the same time (because the game can't distinquish between them).


"because the game can't distinquish between them" isn't quite true. Blizzard does have code to identify multiple rapture procs and subsequently only let one of them pass. This code is active in Ulduar, at General Vezax (can be easily verified in P2, hard mode). There, you will get one proc with reduced effect, but only one.

To me, this is proof enough that the mechanics of multiple rapture procs is fully intended by Blizzard and can be disabled in every fight where the game designers wish to do so.

The simple fact is this. We are told to concentrate more. But we can only do that if we are allowed to go considerably faster.


#55 Sgat8516

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 12:16 AM

"because the game can't distinquish between them" isn't quite true. Blizzard does have code to identify multiple rapture procs and subsequently only let one of them pass.


I just reviewed several logs for this, and I think your making an association where one doesn't exist.
I checked 6-7 logs, everyone had 1-2 Disc Priests. Every Disc Priest had 9-13 Rapture proc's, but 100% of all those those proc's, also proc'd the revitalize-style secondary effect of Rapture (IE, the priest's were shielding themselves, and when those shields broke, they were getting the secondary and primary effect of rapture, but only on themselves).
Seems to be just a flaw in the secondary effect of the talent, rather than a 'on/off switch that blizz can flip'.

Blizzard did NOT intend that everytime Lich King 25HM cast infest, that the Disc Priest shielding the raid would get 50% of his mana bar back instantly... (2.5% per x 20 shields, and its almost everyone of those, depending on resist rates.. minimum is usually around 16-17..)

#56 Withoutrival

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 03:26 AM

5 x 0.00575 x 0.6 x SQRT(Intellect) x Spirit = OO5SR Mana Regeneration

This was a typo on my part. Not enough 5s. However, the calculation I used is the one given on page one of this thread.

5 x 0.00575 x 0.6 x 44.721 = 1.06X


This equation assumes the value of spirit to be 1.06X, which is to account for Enlightenment- a 6% increase to spirit. However, I am unsure whether it scales before or after Kings. The equation assumes that it is before. If it is after, the value of spirit becomes 1.166X, which dramatically changes the results to those of Hegen's calculation.

The disc priest in question is horde side, therefore the Human component of the equation was excluded.

I concede that they are close, but assuming that all elements of the equation are correct, MP5 from the gems mathematically equates to a higher regeneration gain.

#57 Sgat8516

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 06:57 AM

The equation assumes that it is before. If it is after, the value of spirit becomes 1.166X, which dramatically changes the results to those of Hegen's calculation.


(1 x 1.06) x 1.1 = (1 x 1.1) x 1.06 = 1.166

It doesn't really matter which way you multiply that, its the same equation.
But, the math has already been worked out, ages ago. Thats one of the first things thats reevaluated each time theres a major change to regen formulas, but, they always had the per spec modifiers that needed to be calculated into each.

Holy
1 intellect = 0.2062 Mp5 (Replenishment)
1 intellect = 0.2288 Mp5 (6 minute fight, mana pool size)
1 intellect = 0.1144 Mp5 (6 minute fight, shadowfiend)
1 intellect = 0.1595 Mp5 (Meditation, 1200 spirit assumed)
1 spirit = 0.3615 Mp5 (Meditation, 1400 intellect assumed)
1 spirit = 0.288 spellpower (Holy, Spiritual Guidance)
Disc
1 intellect = 0.2371 Mp5 (Replenishment)
1 intellect = 0.2631 Mp5 (6 minute fight, mana pool size)
1 intellect = 0.1316 Mp5 (6 minute fight, shadowfiend)
1 intellect = 0.1834 Mp5 (Meditation, 1200 spirit assumed)
1 spirit = 0.365 Mp5 (Meditation, 1400 intellect assumed)

Changes:
Broke down Holy+Disc conversions, Holy gained 10% kings bonus and 5% spirit bonus to those appropriate stats, Disc received 10% kings, 15% int, 6% Spirit (per talents).
(people are welcome to check my math, it is getting kinda late here :P)

But yes, back to your point, from a gem aspect, 10 spirit = 3.65MP5 vs 5 MP5 from gemming Purified vs Royal, yes, is a higher net yeild of MP5. But, intellect is nearly double the value of spirit for a Disc priest. The total being 0.7089 MP5 per point of Int (vs .365 for spirit).
But again, we're going back to the underlying cause, a Disc priest in ICC gear, shouldn't require higher regen, due to the heavily broken mechanic of Rapture shield proc's (Rapture = 364mp5 per shield every 12, multiple shields that pop when this is not on CD at the same time, all yeild the proc, so thats 364mp5 x1-x20....).
Also, using a regen flask vs spellpower flask is also an option, but the numbers still support Flask of Distilled Wisdom, as the higher source of MP5 (Distilled wisdom =46.07 mp5 vs Mojo = 45 mp5).

#58 Hegen

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 10:25 AM

Thats one of the first things thats reevaluated each time theres a major change to regen formulas, but, they always had the per spec modifiers that needed to be calculated into each.
...
(people are welcome to check my math, it is getting kinda late here :P)
...
Blizzard did NOT intend that everytime Lich King 25HM cast infest, that the Disc Priest shielding the raid would get 50% of his mana bar back instantly... (2.5% per x 20 shields, and its almost everyone of those, depending on resist rates.. minimum is usually around 16-17..)


Sorry to say this, but some of the numbers in the current guide are actually incorrect (not the basic formulas nor the reasoning). I have an update in preparation, that lists both the values for disc and holy, with and without talent/buff gains. Still need to redo the HC stuff, though, assumptions no longer really match healing styles close enough.

Bugs (obvious issue with int/spi baseline aside):
- Replenishment value is pre-nerf.
- mp5 gain from int on meditation is too high (seems to already factor in talent/buff gains)

Regarding your numbers: I will compare these with my spreadsheet before posting, that's a welcome input (and well timed, too).

Regarding rapture: this behaviour already was insane at, for example, Freya+3, though it was more difficult to pull it off reliably there. The thing is, it's undeniable that at General Vezax they disabled the multiple Rapture procs without turning off the Rapture on self entirely (I think it was reduced to about 30% or so). So, while what you say has merit, this clearly proves to me they are a) aware of this since a long time ago and B) are able to disable this if and where they wish do to so.

The simple fact is this. We are told to concentrate more. But we can only do that if we are allowed to go considerably faster.


#59 The Not So Evil

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 11:29 AM

The Vezax issue is definately a case, but that might actually just mean that somewhere, the game set a flag for rapture proc, removed the procs, and at last gave you a substitute proc if this flag was set. Might not have been an intentional feature nor bug, just easiest to do programming wise.
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#60 Shylena

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 12:03 PM

Healing Priests and Raiding


Rules of Thumb for Holy
Stack haste up to 12-14%. Think hard about whether you need more than that, given raid buffs and talents.
Pick up as much intellect as you can. It's always valuable.
Spellpower is always good.
11 spirit = 4 Mp5, ignoring spellpower gains entirely. Given spellpower gains, a 2:1 ratio is acceptable.

Crit is always valuable, although less so once you break 30% raid-buffed (diminishing returns on ilvl points spent).

Rough goals for the start of Icecrown.25 are to have 3000+ spellpower, 30% crit, and 30% haste, along with ~ 500 Mp5 I5SR fully raid-buffed.



My real question about the above is where you say stack haste up to 12-14%, but then say the goal to start Icecrown for haste is 30%. I think there must be some error here, or perhaps I simply do not understand.

At my peak in ICC I had about 24% haste (I am a holy priest), and was focused on raid healing using PoM, CoH, FH and PoH, stacking via serendipity in order to power faster PoHs. My personal experience has seemed to be that due to the nerfing of the coefficient for PoH in Ulduar, and the negative impact of scaling since then, that PoH is beginning to move into the realm of GH as a no longer in actual use good spell. PoM in 4 piece tier 10 seems to be almost as good as CoH in terms of ehps.

With all the druid HoTs, quick pally heals and CH spam, what appears to be a productive and effective spell (PoH) too often ends up with too little effective healing and too much overhealing by the time it connects. There is also the complication of people in groups being scattered on many encounters.

I have recently started experimenting with moving away from use of haste, serendipity and PoH to greater use of SP and Renew spam. I still value haste, but I have in experimenting started regemming so as to replace haste with more SP.

I will be interested in any experience others have with such a modified playstyle in ICC as a holy priest.




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