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DKP and cross-class parity


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#41 seped

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Posted 31 January 2007 - 10:40 PM

I really like the idea of just picking a spec and getting stuff in the other one/two at reduced price as long as no one with that spec goes after it. I'm not sure I'm a fan of the whole percentage split, since that just seems to be complementing something that would be best implemented in the keep it simple fashion.

I might bring that up to my guild, currently we are only looking at doing a zero sum for 25 mans with 3 bid levels. (low/med/high with associated point values).

#42 RK

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Posted 31 January 2007 - 11:18 PM

Between cross-class issues and working out how to fit in Karazhan loot (it was bad enough last time with jealousy between people getting Leggings of the Black Blizzard etc for free vs those paying serious DKP to pick up equivalent in BWL), we've said screw it and gone to loot council.

A percentage split, besides considering the relative amounts of weaponry (and trinkets!) that different classes need should also consider whether damage/PVP gear (especially for pure healers and pure tanks) is included, or whether those classes have to pay extra compared to DPS classes to end up with both PvE and damage/PvP gear. I say damage/PvP because you never know when a PvE fight's going to come along when you want your priests to be able to do damage too...

#43 Aphyrax

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Posted 31 January 2007 - 11:25 PM

I really like the idea of just picking a spec and getting stuff in the other one/two at reduced price as long as no one with that spec goes after it. I'm not sure I'm a fan of the whole percentage split, since that just seems to be complementing something that would be best implemented in the keep it simple fashion.

I might bring that up to my guild, currently we are only looking at doing a zero sum for 25 mans with 3 bid levels. (low/med/high with associated point values).

The reason why the "when nobody wants it" method is problematic can easily be seen from the last 2 years of raiding. Simply put, there is not an awful lot of decent loot that nobody wants. How much DPS gear will a holy priest get if he has to wait for all mages, warlocks, moonkins, shadow priests and elemental shamans to get it first? Pretty much none that is worth anything.

That will then again lead to healers being pigeonholed into only healing without any ability to do decent damage. How often have you heard senior holy priests complain that they could not get DPS gear because they were put even behind some new mage? And now imagine this much much worse because those guys will also be put behind new shadow priests that chose the DPS track. Under those conditions, who would chose the healer track?

The best way to avoid all that requires the healers to have some form of GUARANTEED DPS loot. Not just loot that nobody wants, because that will never be guaranteed with turnover and guilds quitting older dungeons. The only way to attain that is to give them some DKP that they can spend on DPS loot, even outbidding the actual DPSers. Just not too often.

That is the reason for the percentage split. Which btw is not all that hard to set up and administer.

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Posted 31 January 2007 - 11:46 PM

FWIW, I rather like Aphyrax's system as he describes it. Good amounts of personal freedom in indicating what specific loot is worth to you personally (as opposed to relying on the competence of officers in picking a value to represent an item's worth to everyone in the guild) but still strong pushes to send the gear to the people that will use it the most. And a nice bit of randomness in the sense of not knowing who will win what for how much (as opposed to "X Y and Z will win the next 3 DFTs for 120 points each").

#45 Aphyrax

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Posted 31 January 2007 - 11:54 PM

FWIW, I rather like Aphyrax's system as he describes it. Good amounts of personal freedom in indicating what specific loot is worth to you personally (as opposed to relying on the competence of officers in picking a value to represent an item's worth to everyone in the guild) but still strong pushes to send the gear to the people that will use it the most.

Thanks. It has a bunch of interesting side effects too. For example you can ask applicants to list their desired split. If someone tries to get in via the good old "I am a total healbot, I love healing and will do nothing but heal 24/7 if you only let me in" line then he better back that up with a 100/0/0 or at least 90/10/0 split. And he will be stuck with that split for a while so he cannot spec shadow next week and collect DPS loot.

Therefore, you can recruit much more accurately and it is also a convenient way to keep track of what exactly every member currently wants to do with their character.

It is also possible to apply the same principle to a fixed point system, but you might have to lower the cost for off-specs a little, otherwise they might not get enough loot to be viable in those situations that you need them.

#46 Althor

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Posted 01 February 2007 - 04:04 AM

Aphyrax: How would you handle special cases for example "tank" loot for Warlocks in the case of Vek'lor. I doubt there would be many warlocks that would be giving more than 0% to their tanking DPS split.

Or resist gear in general.

#47 notrachel

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Posted 01 February 2007 - 04:09 AM

I did have an idea about a system where taking, say, 5 pieces of raid spec loot allowed you an option to take an off-spec item provided you had the DKP for priority and were willing to pay full price for it. Which would be similar to Aphyrax's percentage system if slightly more straightforward to understand and administer at the obvious expense of some personal flexibility.

You can always wait to get it for free when its uncontested but as a holy priest I am keen to avoid waiting 14 months to finally get a Choker of Enlightenment.

#48 Lamaros

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Posted 01 February 2007 - 04:56 AM

I really like the idea of just picking a spec and getting stuff in the other one/two at reduced price as long as no one with that spec goes after it. I'm not sure I'm a fan of the whole percentage split, since that just seems to be complementing something that would be best implemented in the keep it simple fashion.

I might bring that up to my guild, currently we are only looking at doing a zero sum for 25 mans with 3 bid levels. (low/med/high with associated point values).

The reason why the "when nobody wants it" method is problematic can easily be seen from the last 2 years of raiding. Simply put, there is not an awful lot of decent loot that nobody wants. How much DPS gear will a holy priest get if he has to wait for all mages, warlocks, moonkins, shadow priests and elemental shamans to get it first? Pretty much none that is worth anything.

Sorry to say, but the last two years of raiding aren't really pertinent to the discussion. Lower group sizes (10! and 25), not as large gaps in scaling mean that less people will be going for the same loot, and more loot will be pretty good even if it's not cutting edge.

#49 Ultramax

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Posted 01 February 2007 - 05:00 AM

I really like the idea of just picking a spec and getting stuff in the other one/two at reduced price as long as no one with that spec goes after it. I'm not sure I'm a fan of the whole percentage split, since that just seems to be complementing something that would be best implemented in the keep it simple fashion.

I might bring that up to my guild, currently we are only looking at doing a zero sum for 25 mans with 3 bid levels. (low/med/high with associated point values).

The reason why the "when nobody wants it" method is problematic can easily be seen from the last 2 years of raiding. Simply put, there is not an awful lot of decent loot that nobody wants. How much DPS gear will a holy priest get if he has to wait for all mages, warlocks, moonkins, shadow priests and elemental shamans to get it first? Pretty much none that is worth anything.

Sorry to say, but the last two years of raiding aren't really pertinent to the discussion. Lower group sizes (10! and 25), not as large gaps in scaling mean that less people will be going for the same loot, and more loot will be pretty good even if it's not cutting edge.

How so? A full naxx, or bwl, or aq40 clear netted you 2 set pieces for 40 people on a 7 day timer. Now you get 1 set piece for 25 people on a 7 day timer (Excepting tier4 gloves and helms). So your set loot is actually coming in slower.

#50 LadyVex

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Posted 01 February 2007 - 07:33 AM


Sorry to say, but the last two years of raiding aren't really pertinent to the discussion. Lower group sizes (10! and 25), not as large gaps in scaling mean that less people will be going for the same loot, and more loot will be pretty good even if it's not cutting edge.

How so? A full naxx, or bwl, or aq40 clear netted you 2 set pieces for 40 people on a 7 day timer. Now you get 1 set piece for 25 people on a 7 day timer (Excepting tier4 gloves and helms). So your set loot is actually coming in slower.

Which is a good thing IMO, I never liked how people obsessed over the sets when there was usually better non set options available. It seems most of the gear people will be getting from the new raids won't be of the class set variety.

While for some classes the bonuses weren't useful, for other classes the set bonuses were immensely nice and never ever worth breaking up. 3 piece trans etc comes to mind, and while it's often not noted, 5 piece trans was such a big thing for me, that to this day I'm still saddened at breaking it up.

But yes you're right; the new items all seem to favor a more piece by piece gearing of your character. Even the teir 4 and 5 sets are 5 piece only, which means you fill in the rest of the slots somewhere else. And in that case I'd consider that a dkp nightmare. Think Gloves of the Messiah type that all your resto druids/resto shamans/holy priests want because teir 4-5 has no gloves. But that's another issue entirely heh.

#51 Chimp

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Posted 01 February 2007 - 12:08 PM

A good set of rules, regarding off-spec loot, is going to be pretty important, particularly when you consider that the (arguably) three most viable hybrids all share a single token. 3 Pure DPS classes all share a second token, and 2 potential hybrids and a pure DPS class share the third. So basically any rules have to account for that fact that some hybrids have to bid against 'pure' classes, some pure classes only bid against other pure classes and some hybrids will be competing with other hybrids.

So for example, should DPS warriors have equal rights with a resto druid for their second token, if the Druid wants a PvP moonkin set which he rarely (if ever) uses on raids, and the DPS Warrior wants a secondary set for tanking? Will the paladins and shamans every get a shot at off-spec loot, while your 7 raiding rogues are trying to complete their full dps sets? Will the Warlocks, Hunters and Mages be able to quickly pick up their single token for each slot, and then get first choice on Trinkets/Cloaks/Rings etc?

Also, I've seen several suggestions that hybrids need to pick a spec and gear up appropriately. I was a 'DPS warrior' in Naxx, yet I ended up picking up far more Tanking gear than DPS gear, simply because when I was required to tank, without a Plague Bearer, Dreadnaught etc I simply couldn't have performed that role that the raid required.

The flip side is, should I have equal rights to a Gressil as a DPS Warrior, when I'll only be using it on 60% of the boss fights? Techincally I'm a listed as being a primary DPS class, yet one of our Sword rogues will be putting it to use on every single fight, whereas I'd have been using my Widows remorse on any fight I need to Tank.

#52 Sancus

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Posted 01 February 2007 - 12:46 PM

The reason why the "when nobody wants it" method is problematic can easily be seen from the last 2 years of raiding. Simply put, there is not an awful lot of decent loot that nobody wants. How much DPS gear will a holy priest get if he has to wait for all mages, warlocks, moonkins, shadow priests and elemental shamans to get it first? Pretty much none that is worth anything.

That will then again lead to healers being pigeonholed into only healing without any ability to do decent damage. How often have you heard senior holy priests complain that they could not get DPS gear because they were put even behind some new mage? And now imagine this much much worse because those guys will also be put behind new shadow priests that chose the DPS track. Under those conditions, who would chose the healer track?

The best way to avoid all that requires the healers to have some form of GUARANTEED DPS loot. Not just loot that nobody wants, because that will never be guaranteed with turnover and guilds quitting older dungeons. The only way to attain that is to give them some DKP that they can spend on DPS loot, even outbidding the actual DPSers. Just not too often.

That is the reason for the percentage split. Which btw is not all that hard to set up and administer.

1) Healers don't need high-end dps loot for raids.

2) The purpose of the high-end loot from the most current raid instance, to any serious hardcore guild, is to make it easier to kill bosses in that instance and the next.

Thus, it seems obvious to me that this isn't a problem for any serious raid guild. A healer doesn't NEED access to the best dps loot ALONG with the best available healing loot. If they claim that they do, then they're being pretty selfish. Yes, this means that it's harder for such a healer to farm, but face it, if you're specced for healing in the first place, that choice alone is going to make farming far harder than any gear issues. If you are REALLY concerned with farming, or pvp where you don't like to heal, then you really need an alt. It may suck, but that is the way the game is designed.

Finally, given the quality of loot available from 5-mans and crafted epics, a healer that claimed they need to have an equal chance to get top-end dps gear from a 25-man raid is basically a liar. If you need to keep your healers happy by allocating them dps loot from the highest quality level you have access to, you should really find new healers who don't put their personal soloing dps, already gimped by spec, ahead of raid dps.

Because that's just fucking stupidity any way you dress it up.
<Vontre> I removed the cooldown on evo
<sancus> and what happened?
<Vontre> DPS went down rofl

#53 Guest_alienangel_*

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Posted 01 February 2007 - 03:47 PM

The reason why the "when nobody wants it" method is problematic can easily be seen from the last 2 years of raiding. Simply put, there is not an awful lot of decent loot that nobody wants. How much DPS gear will a holy priest get if he has to wait for all mages, warlocks, moonkins, shadow priests and elemental shamans to get it first? Pretty much none that is worth anything.

That will then again lead to healers being pigeonholed into only healing without any ability to do decent damage. How often have you heard senior holy priests complain that they could not get DPS gear because they were put even behind some new mage? And now imagine this much much worse because those guys will also be put behind new shadow priests that chose the DPS track. Under those conditions, who would chose the healer track?

The best way to avoid all that requires the healers to have some form of GUARANTEED DPS loot. Not just loot that nobody wants, because that will never be guaranteed with turnover and guilds quitting older dungeons. The only way to attain that is to give them some DKP that they can spend on DPS loot, even outbidding the actual DPSers. Just not too often.

That is the reason for the percentage split. Which btw is not all that hard to set up and administer.

1) Healers don't need high-end dps loot for raids.

2) The purpose of the high-end loot from the most current raid instance, to any serious hardcore guild, is to make it easier to kill bosses in that instance and the next.

Thus, it seems obvious to me that this isn't a problem for any serious raid guild. A healer doesn't NEED access to the best dps loot ALONG with the best available healing loot. If they claim that they do, then they're being pretty selfish. Yes, this means that it's harder for such a healer to farm, but face it, if you're specced for healing in the first place, that choice alone is going to make farming far harder than any gear issues. If you are REALLY concerned with farming, or pvp where you don't like to heal, then you really need an alt. It may suck, but that is the way the game is designed.

Finally, given the quality of loot available from 5-mans and crafted epics, a healer that claimed they need to have an equal chance to get top-end dps gear from a 25-man raid is basically a liar. If you need to keep your healers happy by allocating them dps loot from the highest quality level you have access to, you should really find new healers who don't put their personal soloing dps, already gimped by spec, ahead of raid dps.

Because that's just fucking stupidity any way you dress it up.

I think you missed several posts in the thread. He isn't describing a system that guarantees healers cutting edge DPS loot and healing loot. His system allows healers to split their point accumulation between DPS and healing pools. If they dedicated enough points to regularly compete for DPS loot, they would not be able to compete for healing loot. More importantly, they'd be less likely to get invited to raid in healer roles. This just lets the healers make the hard decisions for themselves (and possibly screw themselves out of a raid spot), instead of depending on fortune to someday smile and let them loot their first piece of DPS gear 8 months down the line, if they still happen to have a raid group interested in visiting an old instance to gear up off-specs.

#54 Sumie

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Posted 01 February 2007 - 04:49 PM

We had a similar problem with this issue but it derived more from the zone DKP caps we implemented.

Since it was universal for all classes (ie. 1500 for MC/Rag, 2500 for BWL/Nef), casters always ended up with a surplus of DKP, much more than warriors, rogues, and hunters, primarily because they spent much less on their weapon/ranged slots. We have a simple upgrade/sidegrade/downgrade system that allows tanks to get multiple weapons, and pay upgrade from a 1H mainhand to a 2H, but in the end, they still had to pay full price for 3 slots -- mainhand/2H, offhand/shield, and ranged. While casters also have to pay for 3 weapon slots in our system, very few need to pick up anything but their mainhand weapon, and even for those that do bid on all, off-hand items and wands/relics are generally much cheaper in price than an off-hand sword/shield and bow. The DKP difference was usually about 200 between a caster and melee class.

#55 Auxilium

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Posted 01 February 2007 - 07:38 PM

I must admit I'm quite biased towards an open bidding system without any rules. Those who play the most, will have the highest chance on getting the gear they want and if the raid leaders feel that a certain person's choice of gear doesn't benefit the guild, it's time to reconsider this person's position.

But this dicussion is not about fixed vs. open bidding, I know, so I'll just throw in my 2 cents, for what it's worth...

Some people suggest that at the end of an instance's lifecycle (let's say, 6-9 months pre TBC), pretty much everyone should've paid equal amounts of DKP in there. People who focus on one set of gear (MTs, DPS, Pure Healers) will have spend the same amount of DKP on a lesser amount of gear compared to hybrids (OTs, Paladins/Shamans/Druids, PvP Priests perhaps), who will spend an equal amount of DKP on a more items.

I do not think this system will work. It won't, because droprates are and always will be random chances: for example, most hunters would only want Ashjre'thul from Blackwing Lair (upon entering BWL, FotF + Warblade was superior to any melee combo from BWL). Ashjre'thul then, would have had to cost as much as, for example, Reinforced Elementium Bulwark and Ashkhandi (because warriors both tank and dps, this also assumes that all tanks had Quel'Serrar... what about the tanks without QS or TF?). That's a lot of "ifs" already, not to mention many guilds only ever saw 2-3 Ashjre'thuls drop ever. This would mean you would balance 1 Chromaggus drop for 1 class against a million combinations possible for other classes and what about the Tier items? I saw 3 mages in full Netherwind and multiple gloves sharded before half the other classes even had the chance to complete a set.

My conclusion (and rather an open door): trying to make the DKP spend in an instance for all classes equal (taking multiple roles into the equation), will not work because droprates are, still, only chances.

The suggestion, then, to ask players to chose a primary path, slightly alleviates the problem of the randomness but still does not take it away. This still would only work if you can depend on the droprates (and you still can't). If you have a team of 6 warriors, 3 chose tanking as their primary path and 3 chose dps as their primary path, you'll need to have a warriors dps item drop for every warrior tank item that drops, to make it fair. Sure, the tanking warriors will have to wait for the dps warriors to get their 2 hander before they can, but if the odds are in your favour and 2 handers drop like rain drops during the rain season, those who chose the dps path won't be very happy that the tanks got nice 2 handers almost as quick for less DKP!

I'm doing my best here to stay away still from the fixed vs bidding system, but really, I can't see any system work unless it favours time played, rather than class played. If a player plays 5 nights a week, he deserves the loot he wants more than the player who plays 3 nights a week - if the 5-nights-a-week player turns out to be a mage and the 3-nights-a-week player turns out to be a druid who wants 3 sets of gear, then it's too bad. You didn't order him to roll hybrid and you can't help that he plays less, the druid knows the rules of the game and if his DKP earned can't pay for the gear he wants, he'll have to make choices.

And if any player makes choices you don't see correct, you don't necessarily have to implent a loot council straight away but rather talk to that player and see if he can be persuaded to chose for guild progression rather than his own.

In the end, reward the player that plays most, not the class that has most choices and just make sure you are very clear on what gear you expect certain people to take. That's all that matters for item distribution balance.

#56 Aphyrax

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Posted 01 February 2007 - 07:49 PM

Aphyrax: How would you handle special cases for example "tank" loot for Warlocks in the case of Vek'lor. I doubt there would be many warlocks that would be giving more than 0% to their tanking DPS split.

Or resist gear in general.

Resist gear is always a bit icky, because people don't want to spend DKP on something they use for one fight the whole game. I would just put the resist gear into the pool it belongs most ignoring resist (ie if it had spell damage it would be in the DPS pool) and let bidding sort out the pricing. I would deal with warlock tanking gear the same way, because I do not think that such a rare case warrants special attention. That is just put it in the DPS pool and pretend the tanking stats wont exist. Since the items are only useful to tanking warlocks anyway, bidding will make sure it ends up in the right hands.

An interesting challenge for any such scheme are tokens that lead to loot in more than one bucket. I think it would work best if you classified such items in both pools that is let people bid with either one (but not both at the same time) on it. Yes that would mean that you could in rare scenarios use heal DKP to outbid someone who is using DPS DKP, but other than the logical oddity I do not see too many problems with it since ultimately its the same DKP anyway.

#57 Aphyrax

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Posted 01 February 2007 - 07:54 PM

I used to beat that same drum and prefer very strict loot rules for the sake of progression. But really, what you are doing is put that progression on the back of people who spec purely for raid for the sake of the guild. Ie holy priests, resto druids etc. This debate is old and does not belong here, but I have to come to the conclusion that unless you are extremely hardcore (which I am not and do not want to be) your loot system should focus on 2 things.

1. Minimize drama.
2. Maximize the enjoyment of the people in the guild.

Both those are inconsistent with the view that healers should never get any nice DPS goodies because they are healbots anyway. If you compete for world firsts then you are playing in a different league than me and my statements do not apply to you.

1) Healers don't need high-end dps loot for raids.

2) The purpose of the high-end loot from the most current raid instance, to any serious hardcore guild, is to make it easier to kill bosses in that instance and the next.

<SNIP>

I think you missed several posts in the thread. He isn't describing a system that guarantees healers cutting edge DPS loot and healing loot. His system allows healers to split their point accumulation between DPS and healing pools. If they dedicated enough points to regularly compete for DPS loot, they would not be able to compete for healing loot. More importantly, they'd be less likely to get invited to raid in healer roles. This just lets the healers make the hard decisions for themselves (and possibly screw themselves out of a raid spot), instead of depending on fortune to someday smile and let them loot their first piece of DPS gear 8 months down the line, if they still happen to have a raid group interested in visiting an old instance to gear up off-specs.



#58 seped

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Posted 01 February 2007 - 07:55 PM

Aux, rewarding the player who plays the most doesn't mean using a bidding system. It's done just as easily in fixed priced or preselected bid systems. With fixed price a tie is easily broken by either attendance percentage or total earned dkp. Both of these resolutions favor the person who played more. A bidding system just forces the guys who play more to pay more in order to get some item first.

It just seemed counterintuitive to me to say "We are rewarding this item to you first since you have shown more dedication and have attended more raids, But we are still going to charge you 10 times what joe slap is going to pay for it next week."

More closely related to the original topic, I'm only looking at this topic for possible solutions to the rather annoying build up of dkp some classes get either through randomness of loot drops or low class numbers. I honestly think with 25 mans as the new large cap it might well be worth pursuing some combination of council or just employing a 'Don't be a dick' policy to rolling.

Frankly I think it's hard to theorycraft too much about dkp systems because 25 and 10 mans is outside of my purview of raid experience between wow and EQ.

#59 Aphyrax

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Posted 01 February 2007 - 08:00 PM

Such simplification comes at the price that for example a druid who wants to gear up for both tanking and healing cannot do so since he cannot split his points evenly. Is that price worth it? That is a matter of opinion. As I stated earlier, simplicity is a virtue of a DKP system that can even come ahead of optimal loot distribution. I believe that I have found a way to administer the system I described with minimal effort, which is why I personally put the tradeoff between performance and simplicity of the system there.


I did have an idea about a system where taking, say, 5 pieces of raid spec loot allowed you an option to take an off-spec item provided you had the DKP for priority and were willing to pay full price for it. Which would be similar to Aphyrax's percentage system if slightly more straightforward to understand and administer at the obvious expense of some personal flexibility.

You can always wait to get it for free when its uncontested but as a holy priest I am keen to avoid waiting 14 months to finally get a Choker of Enlightenment.



#60 Foxery

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Posted 01 February 2007 - 08:04 PM

I'm surprised no one has mentioned using the "Slot Modifier" when creating item prices. Going back to the OP, this would go a long way towards resolving weapon/offhand costs across classes.

I've seen some DKP systems in which all items in a given zone are priced nearly the same, as most of them have the same target ilvl. Including the Slot Mod would make 2H weapons cost the same as a 1H+Shield combination. (Or, if your system already includes this... do it again to increase the effect? Your dual wielders will love you, anyway.)

This balances item pricing quite a bit without your DKP admins needing to manage an exception along the lines of "class X pays differently than class Y," plus any system which uses "clean" math makes price generation a snap for new items that you've never seen before. This does not touch on the sub-discussion about classes who want two sets of gear, but it does at least get a warrior his sword and shield at a fair price. He won't be flat broke when he goes for that 2H Axe of Excessive Bleeding.

By contrast, weapons cost much more than armor in some systems; this made sense in BWL days when we had "that one perfect dagger that every <insert class> should have and keep forever," but killed anyone who wanted an Ashkandi. Hopefully the greater number and variety of zones in TBC will help us avoid that scenario.


A brief refresher: In addition to the stat budget for an item, each slot on your character also has a percentage value. Here's the full list for reference.

2h Weapon – 100%
Off-hand/Shield – 55%
1h Weapon – 42% (?)
Ranged/Wand - 30% (This seems low to me for a bow/gun. Not sure about idols/librams)

So,
Casters... pay the same for a 2H staff as
casters who pay the same for a 1H dagger + offhand as
warriors who pay the same for a 1H sword + Shield as
DPSers who pay the same for a 1H + 1H.

Head – 100%
Chest – 100%
Legs – 100%

Feet – 77%
Shoulder – 77%
Hands – 77%
Waist – 77%

Wrist – 55%
Neck – 55%
Back – 55%
Ring – 55%
Trinkets – 70%


By the way, I've used an open bidding system, and firmly believe it is harmful to the guild's well-being. Bidding creates competition between people who should be your friends. (and in our case, the system had serious inflation.)

When buying loot feels like waging war on your own guildmates, the system has to go!




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