Jump to content


Photo

Raid Composition and Karazhan


  • Please log in to reply
74 replies to this topic

#21 Thebeat

Thebeat

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 57 posts

Posted 18 February 2007 - 02:50 AM

We usually run with the following group:

2 prot wars
1 feral druid
1 enhance shaman
1 resto druid
2 holy priests
1 warlock
2 mages or 1 mage/rogue

We killed everything but netherspite/nightbane so far with this group composition. If you don't take a shaman you are really missing out. I am usually 1 or 2 in dps on trash and bosses. Also bloodlust is amazing. Still haven't run it with a paladin but it would probably make things easier.

#22 kais[bo]

kais[bo]

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 101 posts

Posted 18 February 2007 - 03:29 AM

A paladin makes quite a few karaz encounters a lot easier, yeah. We hardly go with less then two priests, this week my group had 2 holy priests and one shadow priest. also has something to do with all druids being feral and shamis being fairly inactive, so when we want three healing specced healers, we have to turn towards priests.

Generally the 1-of-each approach is okay, but if you go for pure power, I don't see a huge reason to take a hunter and a rogue. Mages and warlocks outdps them anyway badly and if you add a shadow priest to the mix, the amount of damage a warlock deals compared to a rogue/hunter is laughable. The only good reason for a hunter is misdirection, which helps a lot in a few situations.

We run two groups that are like this:
prot warrior
feral druid
1 holy priests (2 if no shaman)
1 holy paladin
1 resto shaman
1 rogue
1 hunter
3 mages/warlocks or 1 mage & 1 lock & shadowmage

Every encounter up to nightbane is very doable with that setup. On nightbane we either take a 4th healer or the druid respecs. Haven't killed him yet, if we get some practice there, I am sure three resto healers and 1-2 non-healing specced healers will do the trick as well.

#23 Mist

Mist

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 390 posts

Posted 18 February 2007 - 04:39 AM

Absolutely demolished the instance up to Nightbane in ~4 hours the past week with:

3 Rogues
1 Paladin
1 Priest
1 Druid
1 Warlock
1 Mage
1 Warrior
1 Shaman

Had to switch one rogue out at Prince for a Hunter, mostly because the hunter wanted the bow.

Then we got to Nightbane and called it. :P

#24 PsiVen

PsiVen

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 416 posts

Posted 18 February 2007 - 07:27 PM

We've got the Prince and his obnoxious Enrage bug down with 2 slightly different compositions:
1 Paladin (MT)
1 Druid (feral)
4 Priests (2 shadow)
2 Rogues
1 Hunter
1 Warlock

and

2 Paladin (1 holy)
2 Druids (feral)
3 Priests (1 shadow)
2 Rogues
1 Warlock



We rotate members around with 2 groups and spend a fair amount relearning encounters, and I assure you that every boss in the instance short of Nightbane (you'll likely need to bring a shaman/warrior for fears) is doable with the OP raid composition. A lot of people discount Paladin tanks offhand, but I think that mentality comes from 95% of the playerbase never actually having played with a good Prot Pally.

#25 Prague

Prague

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 53 posts

Posted 18 February 2007 - 07:44 PM

We've been running two groups that are formed every other reset and should be able to push a third group by next rotation.

Group1
2xWarrior
2xPriest (both Holy/Disc)
Shaman (Enhancement, I believe)
Druid (Resto)
Rogue
Warlock
Mage
Hunter

Group2
2xPriest (1 Holy/Disc, 1 Shadow)
2xDruid (1 Resto, 1 Feral tank)
Warrior
Mage
Rogue
Hunter
Warlock
Shaman (Resto)

Group 1 is working on Shade of Aran, Group 2 downed Shade and had Prince low on our last wipe and then he became untargettable.

The way we do invites is by inviting everyone into one big raid and then making raids out of groups 1&2 and 3&4 with the rest being on a waiting list. When forming groups, we generally go for 2 tanks and 2 priests in each group and then go from there. Generally it is 3 healers, 2 tanks, and 5 dps and that seems to work out well.

#26 Drelegon

Drelegon

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 54 posts

Posted 19 February 2007 - 04:11 PM

We've given everyone a month to get to 70 and get keyed so we haven't really run balanced raids the last few weeks (this will be our first week for everyone at 70). With this it has allowed us to experiment some and most of the encounters up to and including the Curator (we got there and with 1 tank in the raid and nobody with an Arcane Resist set to sponge the bolts it was time to call it after a couple of attempts) are doable with any group of 1-3 tanks, 2-4 healers and the rest DPS regardless of the classes.

Ideally we're planning to run groups with 2 tanks (1 druid, 1 warrior), 1 mage/warlock/hunter/rogue, 2 priests (1 could be shadow, we also have a couple that seem to be finding some good "holy mage" DPS specs that let them heal a quite a bit better in the 4th healer required situation), 1 resto shaman, 1 paladin. After we get to higher gear levels (1500+ heal, 150-200 MP/5, caster DPS with 1000+ damage, etc) we may try moving to 2 healer raids to speed things up allowing more time for the content beyond Karazhan.

By stacking some classes you'll make certain fights easier but you risk turning upgrades into Void Crystals and you also may make other fights harder than they need to be.
Spoiler


Rogues/DPS Warriors are by no means useless now but they are much more difficult to play. For ranged classes the level of difficulty increased from a 2-3 out of 10 in game complexity to maybe a 5 where as the melee folks went from a 3-5 in difficulty to a 7 or so, a lot of people that are perfectly capable of playing a ranged DPS class to its full potential will end up face planted/well below their DPS potential on a melee character. The difficulty comes in the required reaction time to circumstances and the number of different reactions they need to make in order to maximize their DPS and survive. To provide some generic examples to rate the scale I would rate playing Tetris™ at level 1 a 1 in difficulty as you have a "gaming eternity" to decide where to drop the next piece and completing Minesweeper on Expert in 45 seconds or under a 10 (now the decisions are a lot more complex, you have to make them much faster, and one wrong decision and you're dead rather than just having a pocket of air you'll fix later).

#27 Glass

Glass

    besides... it's all in the reflexes.

  • Members
  • 592 posts

Posted 19 February 2007 - 04:33 PM

The difficulty comes in the required reaction time to circumstances and the number of different reactions they need to make in order to maximize their DPS and survive. To provide some generic examples to rate the scale I would rate playing Tetris™ at level 1 a 1 in difficulty as you have a "gaming eternity" to decide where to drop the next piece and completing Minesweeper on Expert in 45 seconds or under a 10 (now the decisions are a lot more complex, you have to make them much faster, and one wrong decision and you're dead rather than just having a pocket of air you'll fix later).



This is an interesting point concerning rogue/dps warrior damage. I am starting to wonder if my below average ping times will come into effect with my class. I believe I'm a decent enough player, our guild's alpha rogue and the class lead and leading melee damage dealer, however, my average ping time is in the area of 250-350ms. I'm wondering how much it will affect my survivability in these fights down the road.

I do have an alt shadowpriest who would probably be more latency friendly, but the way blizzard has cockblocked alts with ridiculous attunement and rep grinding I don't know if it's feasible at this point to try to make a jump.

#28 Plea

Plea

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 381 posts

Posted 19 February 2007 - 07:06 PM

How come is a rogue not latency friendly? All of rogue abilities are limited by energy regen, something I always admired as a warrior with high latency. If you bloodthirst every 7 secs instead of 6, that's quite a dps loss; even more sensitive for a caster. Rogue doesnt have that problem, it doesnt matter if you ss 2 secs later.

#29 Glass

Glass

    besides... it's all in the reflexes.

  • Members
  • 592 posts

Posted 19 February 2007 - 07:23 PM

How come is a rogue not latency friendly? All of rogue abilities are limited by energy regen, something I always admired as a warrior with high latency. If you bloodthirst every 7 secs instead of 6, that's quite a dps loss; even more sensitive for a caster. Rogue doesnt have that problem, it doesnt matter if you ss 2 secs later.


It matters when you're trying to get out of a whirlwind and you've already eaten a tick of it before the casting bar shows up on your screen. I'm talking about damage *taken* not damage dealt.

#30 Plea

Plea

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 381 posts

Posted 19 February 2007 - 07:32 PM

My bad

#31 Incupsof

Incupsof

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 16 posts

Posted 19 February 2007 - 08:10 PM

Last night we did Nightbane with:

Feral Druid (MT)
DPS Warrior (OT)
Rogue
Resto Druid
Mage
Resto Shaman
Shadow Priest
Warlock
Paladin
Holy Priest (Horde; no fear ward)

It went surprisingly well! :)

#32 Overnuker

Overnuker

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 15 posts

Posted 19 February 2007 - 08:37 PM

(A rough estimate of the best group compositions for each boss so far)

Attumen: 1 of each class + 1 random (I guess another tank, due to trash stuff)
Moroes: 2 tanks, 1 frostmage, 1 warlock, 1 holypriest, 1 shadowpriest, 1 paladin, 1 hunter, 1 rogue, 1 more healer
Maiden of Virtue: 1 tank, 1 shadowpriest, 3 healers, 5 ranged DPS
Opera - Romulo & Julianne: 2 tanks, 2 warlocks (or warlock+mage), 1 shaman, 3 more healers, 1 rogue, 1 DPS (rogue/hunter/warlock/mage)
The Curator: 1 tank, 1 shaman, 1 paladin/shaman, 1 warlock, 1 hunter, 2 rogues, 1 healer, 1 hybrid (enhanceshaman/feraldruid/shadowpriest), 1 DPS (rogue/hunter/warlock/mage)
Terestian Illhoof: 1 tank, 1 offtank, 3 healers, 2 AOE'ers, 3 DPS/hybrids (rogue/hunter/warlock/mage/enhanceshaman/feraldruid)
Shade of Aran: 1 tank, 2 warlocks, 2 rogues, 1 interrupt (enhanceshaman/rogue), 3 healers, 1 DPS (rogue/hunter/warlock/mage/enhanceshaman/feraldruid/shadowpriest)
Netherspite: 3 tanks, 3 healers, 2 warlocks/mages, 1 DPS (rogue/hunter/warlock/mage/enhanceshaman/feraldruid/shadowpriest), 1 shadowpriest
Prince Malchezaar: 1 tank, 3 healers, 6 DPS (rogue/hunter/warlock/mage/enhanceshaman/feraldruid/shadowpriest), 1 shadowpriest

#33 thejdawg

thejdawg

    Mr. Sandman

  • Members
  • 5069 posts

Posted 19 February 2007 - 09:01 PM

That is the most colorful post I've ever seen.

As for our group, we run too melee heavy. We have been using 2 Feral Druids, 2 Holy Priest, 1 Prot/Fury Warr, 2 Enh Shaman, 1 Rogue, 1 Mage, +1 (usually mage or hunter). Illhoof was essentially impossible for our makeup/gear level. We could get Aran down to the low 20s high teens percentwise, but we had no good way to deal with the elementals.

To switch it up, I'm (Feral Druid, Tank 2) am going to go healing, and one priest is going to go shadow. That +1 is likely to become a warlock. Although we don't expect the bosses to simply fall over with the rearrangement of talents + addition of a warlock, I foresee both Illhoof and Aran dying on our next reset.

#34 Sirloin

Sirloin

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 492 posts

Posted 19 February 2007 - 09:30 PM

To switch it up, I'm (Feral Druid, Tank 2) am going to go healing, and one priest is going to go shadow. That +1 is likely to become a warlock. Although we don't expect the bosses to simply fall over with the rearrangement of talents + addition of a warlock, I foresee both Illhoof and Aran dying on our next reset.


I highly recommend adding a warlock to your group. My groups first clear of karazhan (except nightbane and spite) was without a warlock, and Aran was hands down the hardest boss for us (Prince took longer but only because of his bugs). For our second week, we swapped a warlock for Aran and it became a much simpler fight. The updates to Illhoof also make a warlock very useful. We originally killed his easy version with one AOEr (mage), but after his buff, one mage couldn't handle it by himself anymore; his mana was gone long before Illhoof was.

#35 Lamaros

Lamaros

    King Hippo

  • Members
  • 511 posts

Posted 19 February 2007 - 10:41 PM

(A rough estimate of the best group compositions for each boss so far)

snip


Needlessly complicated. Most of the things you "need" you'll have with a balanced group. There are only a couple of specific fights where certain groups will have a much easier time.

Attumen: 1 tank, 1 OT. Healers and DPS.
Moroes: 1 tank, 1 OT. Healers and DPS (2 priests).
Maiden of Virtue: 1 tank. Healers and DPS.
Opera - Romulo & Julianne: 1 tank, 1 OT. Some interrupts, purge/spellsteal. Healers and DPS.
The Curator: 1 tank. Decent burst DPS. Healers.
Terestian Illhoof: 1 tank, 1 OT. AoE, burst DPS and healers.
Shade of Aran: Interrupts. Warlock. Healers and DPS.
Netherspite: (still havn't done! :( )
Prince Malchezaar: 1 tank. Healers and DPS.
Nightbane: 1 tank. 1 holy pally. Healers and DPS.

What group will have what is needed for every single boss?

1 Prot Warrior - Main Tank
1 Feral Druid - OT or DPS
1 Shadow Priest - DPS
1 Warlock - DPS
1 Mage - DPS
1 Rogue - DPS
1 Holy Pally - Healing
1 Holy Priest - Healing
1 Shaman - Healing
1 Hunter - DPS

I cant think of a group I'd rather have if there was a race to clear the instance from beginning to end. It can do every encounter very well.

#36 Dryw

Dryw

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 36 posts

Posted 22 February 2007 - 12:06 AM

Nightbane: 1 tank. 1 holy pally. Healers and DPS.


i saw a couple of threads mentioning that you need a holy pally for Nightbane

is there a special reason for that other than their ability to heal nearly forever with the right equipment

#37 Ragnor

Ragnor

    King Hippo

  • Members
  • 606 posts

Posted 22 February 2007 - 12:47 AM

What group will have what is needed for every single boss?

1 Prot Warrior - Main Tank
1 Feral Druid - OT or DPS
1 Shadow Priest - DPS
1 Warlock - DPS
1 Mage - DPS
1 Rogue - DPS
1 Holy Pally - Healing
1 Holy Priest - Healing
1 Shaman - Healing
1 Hunter - DPS

I cant think of a group I'd rather have if there was a race to clear the instance from beginning to end. It can do every encounter very well.


I'm biased but...

Replace the Holy Priest with a 2nd paladin for an extra blessing for everyone in the raid and an extra aura. Put the 2 paladins in the shadow priest's group and they will never ever ever run out of mana ever (spiritual attunement is hax). One of the paladins can also act as the 3rd OT as/when needed.

#38 Mencius

Mencius

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 92 posts

Posted 22 February 2007 - 12:52 AM

Currently, my guild has found that any group can basically clear up to and through Curator. Past Curator melee DPS becomes important for the trash pulls and the kick/pummel/shield bash on Shade. Prince seems to require at least 3 solid healers and a Shadow Priest, with ranged DPS being important to avoid the AoE attacks from both the boss and Infernals.

Our Team 1 normally use the following:

Warrior (MT)
Warrior (OT)
Holy Priest
Holy Priest
Tree Druid
Shadow Priest
Mage (Frost or Fire)
Warlock
Warlock
Rogue

However, we have subbed out on various occasions a Holy Pally for a Holy Priest, a Hunter for a Warlock, and a Ret Pally for a Rogue (not much to my liking, but eh...).

Team 2 is just starting and they are using:

Warrior (MT)
Warrior (OT)
Holy Priest
Holy Priest
Holy Pally
Mage (Frost)
Mage (Fire)
Warlock
Warlock
Rogue

This combination did NOT seem to work for them. Partially due to their lack of gear and partially because of the lack of a Shadow Priest. I cannot stress enough how important a Shadow Priest is on almost all the encounters. For the early encounters they are not as important but come the Curator and beyond they are extremely vital.

Now, one question I do have, has anyone encountered problems with some of their members complaining about off-specs being allowed (or not) into their raids?

Traditionally, Shadow Priests were considered an off-spec but, since TBC, have become critically important. Likewise, Feral Tanks have really come into their own. I have continually been running into a problem with Ret Pallys though, since they see Shadow Priests and Feral Druids in raids and can't understand why they aren't in the raid as well.

Has anyone found a really viable use for a Ret Pally or even a Moonkin Druid that cannot be fulfilled by another, better suited class? At least in Karazhan I have yet to find an encounter that either of these spec lines would shine in.

Furthermore, without the gear to support these specs is there any reason to take these off-spec classes?

EDIT:

We have a Shammy coming up in the ranks soon and having never played horde-side I was wondering what the best function he might serve as well? Healer, DPS, both? Who could/should that person replace with the teams I have listed above?

#39 Lamaros

Lamaros

    King Hippo

  • Members
  • 511 posts

Posted 22 February 2007 - 12:58 AM

i saw a couple of threads mentioning that you need a holy pally for Nightbane

is there a special reason for that other than their ability to heal nearly forever with the right equipment


Yes, there is. See the Nightbane thread.

A second pally over the Holy Priest would work well too. I think I just prefer the priest so you have a little more variety in the healers (Mending, yadda). The second shackle is also nifty for some bits and trash.

Has anyone found a really viable use for a Ret Pally or even a Moonkin Druid that cannot be fulfilled by another, better suited class? At least in Karazhan I have yet to find an encounter that either of these spec lines would shine in.


Sure, there are specific places where these would be useful (though not necessary), the problem is that they are not useful in all places, and with 10 men you can't afford to have someone being not useful at at time unless you want to make it hard for yourself.

#40 Tempestra

Tempestra

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 296 posts

Posted 22 February 2007 - 12:58 AM

Our ret paladin could push 600+ dps without breaking a sweat, so DPS-wise they can validate themselves. However, I find that their lack of a short-cooldown interrupt (akin to pummel, kick or earth shock) really hurts them in the mid-late karazhan fights. We actually had ours respec holy so he could heal while we do karazhan, but will go back to ret when we do mostly 25-man raids. The +3% crit debuff he applies is far more effective when the number of beneficiaries increases (obviously).

As for moonkin, I don't see how they would bring much more to the table than another class. If you don't have a resto or feral druid, they could provide mark for everyone, as well as an extra innervate and battle rez. We don't have any in our guild though.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users