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Raid Composition and Karazhan


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#41 Ragnor

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 01:01 AM

i saw a couple of threads mentioning that you need a holy pally for Nightbane

is there a special reason for that other than their ability to heal nearly forever with the right equipment


Blessings make a pretty big difference.

Blessing of Kings (Tank)
Blessing of Might (Melee dps + hunters)
Blessing of Wisdom (Casters)
Blessing of Salvation (Warlocks, Shadow Priests?).

#42 Ragnor

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 01:18 AM

Our ret paladin could push 600+ dps without breaking a sweat, so DPS-wise they can validate themselves. However, I find that their lack of a short-cooldown interrupt (akin to pummel, kick or earth shock) really hurts them in the mid-late karazhan fights. We actually had ours respec holy so he could heal while we do karazhan, but will go back to ret when we do mostly 25-man raids. The +3% crit debuff he applies is far more effective when the number of beneficiaries increases (obviously).

As for moonkin, I don't see how they would bring much more to the table than another class. If you don't have a resto or feral druid, they could provide mark for everyone, as well as an extra innervate and battle rez. We don't have any in our guild though.


Out of interest does the ret paladin have a ctprofile?

#43 Meddler

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 01:57 AM

As for moonkin, I don't see how they would bring much more to the table than another class. If you don't have a resto or feral druid, they could provide mark for everyone, as well as an extra innervate and battle rez. We don't have any in our guild though.


I'd personally be willing to give a decent moonkin a shot in a 25 man raid once we get there. Not a spec that personally grabs me but the combination of a 3% +hit bonus to physical damage dealers raid wide and the 5% crit aura to party spell casters is a pretty solid contribution. Couple that with another innervate and battle res and provided said druid can do a respectable amount of dps/shifts to healing when needed I'd consider it worth the trade off of one pure dps class.

Wouldn't favour one in a 10 man raid, same arguement as with ret paladins plus not going to get a full spellcasting party going as easily and definitely don't need two for a 25 man since not getting the benefit of improved Fairie Fire twice. Other issue is that with no threat control and a fairly high crit approach they're going to need to have decent judgement about their agro at times. All a bit of a non issue for us at the moment admittedly since our raiding druids are resto or feral.

#44 chrono

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 02:03 AM

Yes, there is. See the Nightbane thread.


I just read through that thread again. I'm not seeing any real reason that the Paladin being Holy matters (which I think was the original question, yes Paladins rock for the fight in general). Is it just for improved aura range, or what?

#45 Lamaros

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 02:16 AM

I'd personally be willing to give a decent moonkin a shot in a 25 man raid once we get there. Not a spec that personally grabs me but the combination of a 3% +hit bonus to physical damage dealers raid wide and the 5% crit aura to party spell casters is a pretty solid contribution. Couple that with another innervate and battle res and provided said druid can do a respectable amount of dps/shifts to healing when needed I'd consider it worth the trade off of one pure dps class.

Wouldn't favour one in a 10 man raid, same arguement as with ret paladins plus not going to get a full spellcasting party going as easily and definitely don't need two for a 25 man since not getting the benefit of improved Fairie Fire twice. Other issue is that with no threat control and a fairly high crit approach they're going to need to have decent judgement about their agro at times. All a bit of a non issue for us at the moment admittedly since our raiding druids are resto or feral.


Aggro is really no problem when you have pallies and decent tanks.

#46 Lamaros

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 02:17 AM

I just read through that thread again. I'm not seeing any real reason that the Paladin being Holy matters (which I think was the original question, yes Paladins rock for the fight in general). Is it just for improved aura range, or what?


Easier to get and maintain aggro in phase two.

#47 mek

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 04:04 AM

Finally dragged my DW enhance butt into Kara this week, took a "melee heavy" group which had us worried, but we went in and oneshotted everything we attempted (no Nightbane, Netherspite, Illhoof) in the evening. Groups were:

2 Holy Priests
1 Holy Paladin
1 Prot Warrior
1 Warlock

Enhance Shaman (me)
Rogue
Arms Warrior
Marks Hunter
Feral Druid

The sheer buff stacking in the melee group caused a DPStorm of epic proportions, essentially. The only thing I'd change about this group would be to swap a priest for a second paladin, so our melee group could get might as well as salv (which is desperately necessary). Though, multiple prayer of mendings goes a long way to making melee dps viable in otherwise unfriendly fights. Melee stacking is just insane now, insane insane insane, and I think raids that properly take advantage of it will see less of the priest/warlock domination that's been implied so far.

I'm still useless in heroics, though.

#48 Ragnor

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 04:06 AM

I just read through that thread again. I'm not seeing any real reason that the Paladin being Holy matters (which I think was the original question, yes Paladins rock for the fight in general). Is it just for improved aura range, or what?


Holy is the most effective raid spec period. Retribution and protection sacrifice alot of quality healing talents for utility. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with ret or prot dominant spec's but for cutting edge content, guild first kills, bosses that are hard at this stage of the game.. most people that care about performing to the max will spec the most effective spec.

#49 Mencius

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 07:18 PM

...most people that care about performing to the max will spec the most effective spec...


God

If you can hear me, please bestow this mentality to everyone in my guild.

Amen

#50 Roses

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 07:31 PM

I'm biased but...

Replace the Holy Priest with a 2nd paladin for an extra blessing for everyone in the raid and an extra aura. Put the 2 paladins in the shadow priest's group and they will never ever ever run out of mana ever (spiritual attunement is hax). One of the paladins can also act as the 3rd OT as/when needed.


This is what annoys me. You only need 1 priest per raid, and if you have a shadow priest, the holy priest might as well sit out for an extra paladin, because while prayer of mending is nice, it's not that big of a deal compared to shaman chain heals and their totem buffs/bloodlust. I'm not going to pretend my improved divine spirit is worth losing more blessings for the whole raid and another aura for another party. Our guild only has one blood elf paladin at 70, so I won't have to give up my spot for paladin stacking for perhaps a week or two longer. But being a min/maxer myself, what exactly can stacking priests do? Shackle? And what of future raid content? Holy priests barely heal as well as a druid, and holy paladins heal better (more HPM/HPS/longetivity), period. Then people wonder why priests are dropping off left and right from the game.

/kicks self in head for not rolling a paladin.

#51 Rythonn

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Posted 23 February 2007 - 06:15 AM

Is a DPS warrior still viable in Karazhan? I feel like they are taking up space for a better dps class or a druid who can tank better and dps better. We have a warrior now who wants to go fury but to me it is a wasted spot.

#52 Playered

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Posted 23 February 2007 - 06:20 AM

DPS warrior is probly best if you have a Feral Druid as one of the tanks.
Then you get the synergy of [Feral Druid / DPS War / Rogue / Hunter / X ] which is really quite nice, however not having the synergy will really make the warrior seem more 'gimped' than another form of dpser imo.

#53 Dynalisia

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Posted 23 February 2007 - 06:39 AM

Make him spec Fury with a dozen or so points in Prot then, that will give him and your raid the flexibility and redundancy that justifies him being there. There is a lot of information about this in the warrior BC spec thread.


The sheer buff stacking in the melee group caused a DPStorm of epic proportions, essentially.


Had this same type of group in a simple 5-man instance the other day, but the effect was no less impressive :)

#54 Kink

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Posted 23 February 2007 - 09:06 AM

This is what annoys me. You only need 1 priest per raid, and if you have a shadow priest, the holy priest might as well sit out for an extra paladin, because while prayer of mending is nice, it's not that big of a deal compared to shaman chain heals and their totem buffs/bloodlust. I'm not going to pretend my improved divine spirit is worth losing more blessings for the whole raid and another aura for another party. Our guild only has one blood elf paladin at 70, so I won't have to give up my spot for paladin stacking for perhaps a week or two longer. But being a min/maxer myself, what exactly can stacking priests do? Shackle? And what of future raid content? Holy priests barely heal as well as a druid, and holy paladins heal better (more HPM/HPS/longetivity), period. Then people wonder why priests are dropping off left and right from the game.

/kicks self in head for not rolling a paladin.


My guild takes 3 priests. 2 holy/disc and 1 shadow. The extra shackles really are nice, makes moroes a total joke at least. We are horde though and have yet to have a pally in Kara with us, even though we have a 70 keyed pally, he just got his key and I;ve not seen him online since =/.

Is a DPS warrior still viable in Karazhan? I feel like they are taking up space for a better dps class or a druid who can tank better and dps better. We have a warrior now who wants to go fury but to me it is a wasted spot.

Bear tank is very nice for a fury war, the extra 5% crit is not to be sniffed at! Also its another short cooldown interrupt. If he is an exceptional fury war he will out dps your good rogues still also.

We have a MS/prot war as our offtank. Its useful to have people able to switch in and out of dps/tank roles. However if you always have 1 prot warr and 1 feral druid, you won;t need an extra offtank.
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#55 Solensean

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Posted 23 February 2007 - 09:17 AM

Is a DPS warrior still viable in Karazhan? I feel like they are taking up space for a better dps class or a druid who can tank better and dps better. We have a warrior now who wants to go fury but to me it is a wasted spot.


During our first Karazhan run wednesday, I ouputted more DPS, as a protection paladin, and tanking the entire run, than the fury warrior present.
Your warrior may have to reconsider.

Of course, do not take this into account if your warrior is willing to act as a support - off tanking when needed, etc. Bringing a fury warrior only for dps is, IHMO, a wasted spot.

#56 Janvier

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Posted 23 February 2007 - 02:03 PM

After reviewing the majority of raid compositions it appears that as a Druid I will not get a raid spot unless I am feral? Also, it looks like even a purely restoration Druid is a last choice in 2nd healer compared Paladin/Priest/Shaman?

It's been engrained in a Druid's head since release that raiding Druids are healers. So that is what I did, healed. Now (from the looks of the raid make up) you are telling me that resto Druids are at the end of the list of preferred healers for 10-mans?

What about Balance/Resto Druids? I am almost afraid to ask :(

#57 Maledict

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Posted 23 February 2007 - 02:15 PM

We have had several raids with a druid resto specced healer and a feral druid tank. I think as a raid leader would consider druids equal to priests / shaman / paladins on average across the whole of the instance, with some classes being better than others on particular fights.

I think the thing to note is that as a resto specced druid, you're competing against other heal specced healers for your raid spot. However, there isn't a class in the game that can compete for the feral druid spot at the moment, and that's why they are so popular. On some fights he's our main tank, on other fights he's top 3 damage - that's why feral druids are, from a RL'ers point of view, one of the "must have" classes for Karazhan. They just make everything go smoothly, and hell, there's rumours that they can even heal once in a while if really needed... :)

#58 kaib

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Posted 23 February 2007 - 02:21 PM

No, as it is, most druids want to be feral atm (it is quite overpowered after all). Resto druids are still very good healers. The thing is, you need two tanks for karazan. If you do not want to bring two warriors, a feral druid or a full prot paladin is the best solution. Prot paladins are not very good main tanks though, so you generally want a prot specced warrior for a boss that hits harder.
Now a tanking specced warrior and a tanking specced paladin means whenever you only need one tank, some dude in your raid is seriously gimped.

Imo the perfect solution is prot warrior, fearl druid, holy priest, shadow priest, holy paladin and resto shaman and various dps classes. For easy mode bring two warlocks so Aran and Netherspite's blue beam are dealt with. Locks also do excellent damage anyway with a shadow priest in the raid.

With that group composition you have two shackles, three resto healers and enough healers for nightbane when either the druid or priest just goes healing. Also if you happen to be horde, you need a prot warrior for Nightbane anyway.

#59 Apate

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Posted 23 February 2007 - 03:05 PM

During our first Karazhan run wednesday, I ouputted more DPS, as a protection paladin, and tanking the entire run, than the fury warrior present.
Your warrior may have to reconsider.

Of course, do not take this into account if your warrior is willing to act as a support - off tanking when needed, etc. Bringing a fury warrior only for dps is, IHMO, a wasted spot.


Paladin DPS (on the meters at least) while tanking is pretty impressive. As 4/43/14 I can OT when needed and do passable (close to the rogues - above some but below others) DPS otherwise.
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#60 Uziel

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Posted 23 February 2007 - 03:06 PM

During our first Karazhan run wednesday, I ouputted more DPS, as a protection paladin, and tanking the entire run, than the fury warrior present.
Your warrior may have to reconsider.

Of course, do not take this into account if your warrior is willing to act as a support - off tanking when needed, etc. Bringing a fury warrior only for dps is, IHMO, a wasted spot.

We brought a fury warrior as DPS only last night. He was using max consumables and basically anything that would give him AP including a Flask. He was over 3200 attack power, self buffed. He finished the night at #1 DPS. We only had two healers and basically cleared up to Curator with no issues.




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