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Demonology, releasing the demon in you.


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#21 Vidiz

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 07:14 AM

Considering the spell priority, would the previously posted opening rotations (Pre-combat LTr1->CoD->Corr->Immo->SB->spell priority) be correct or would updating the rotation to the priority be correct (Pre-combat LTr1->SB->Immo->CoD->Corr-> spell priority)? Is the former moreso to allow tanks threat to build or is the latter better? In the latter, would you downrank SB to mitigate threat and/or to reduce casting time to allow for better movement?

It may be worthwhile to break down racial abilities/stats as it relates to best for Meta/Ruin; I would imagine that Humans and Orcs are likely best. It may also be worthwhile to find the breakpoint at which pDPS>rDPS: i.e. the point at which for raiding 10/25 equipment/gem choice for pDPS is better than equipping/gemming for rDPS. This would of course depend on party makeup and likely apply moreso to 10man raids moreso than 25man.


I personally open up with the first rotation to ensure the target has Shadow Mastery as early as possible - it's never been a threat problem for me.

#22 biggspeed

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 04:25 PM

I disagree with the idea/notion that Doom out does the other curses. I would like to see some reasoning behind this. COA can be refreshed 3 times in one minute and consistently shows me a roughly 21k total dmg where as COD only hit for roughly 17k each time per minute and offered no dps or dmg boost to other spells and effects in all the scenario's I ran. So please explain why this is a preferred curse over the others either COA or COE not withstanding Balance druid or Unholy DK's.

TY

#23 Shijoku

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 04:39 PM

Did you include the damage lost from the GCD's involved with every refresh of CoA? The nice thing about CoD is it has a long uptime, and for the cast, it has a high ratio of damage if the target will survive the full minute. I'm not as familiar with Demo locks as I am with Destro locks (who also utilize CoD), but I know I'd much rather use that GCD on a lifetap or another instant spell compared to having to refresh CoA every time. I can't speak for CoE, though.

#24 Nerrun

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 04:43 PM

I disagree with the idea/notion that Doom out does the other curses. I would like to see some reasoning behind this. COA can be refreshed 3 times in one minute and consistently shows me a roughly 21k total dmg where as COD only hit for roughly 17k each time per minute and offered no dps or dmg boost to other spells and effects in all the scenario's I ran. So please explain why this is a preferred curse over the others either COA or COE not withstanding Balance druid or Unholy DK's.

TY


COA has 4 casts/minute, that are 3 refreshs = 4 Global Cooldowns/minute. COD has 1 Cast/minute = 1 Global Cooldown/minute. with this argument is COD better than COA. COE is only needed if no Balance druid or Unholy DK is in the raid. you can't compare COE with COA/COD. COE is Support COA/COD = DMG

#25 Warlocomotif

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 05:16 PM

I disagree with the idea/notion that Doom out does the other curses. I would like to see some reasoning behind this. COA can be refreshed 3 times in one minute and consistently shows me a roughly 21k total dmg where as COD only hit for roughly 17k each time per minute and offered no dps or dmg boost to other spells and effects in all the scenario's I ran. So please explain why this is a preferred curse over the others either COA or COE not withstanding Balance druid or Unholy DK's.

TY


CoA lasts 24 seconds, you can do 2.5 CoA's per minute. This also costs you 2.5 GCD's, GCD's that could've otherwise been spent on other spells. Once you take the time lost casting extra CoA's into account curse of doom comes out way ahead. Also, Curse of Doom averages around 24k damage each for me. Definitely a lot more than 17k you suggest.
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#26 duhwhat

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 05:36 PM

I would suggest that the Demonic Empowerment macro have the [@pettarget,exists] rather than [combat] conditional, as this will prevent DE from firing if the felguard is not actively attacking (being pulled out from melee from some catastrophic AoE) while you are still casting spells from range. Yes, I realize DE is not a targeted spell, but the conditional is checking for the existence of a pet target, not instructing that the spell be cast on a target.

#27 Reeshet

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 09:47 PM

I've recently had issues where my pet starts attacking things I don't actually want him attacking. The most recent examples are he'll start attacking oozes on Rotface (I assume because I take some aoe type damage from them and he's "defending" me). Also, he'll often end up (with other pets) attacking the wrong target on Blood Princes fight.

Is there any downside to including /petattack to the macro with Demonic Empowerment and Shadowbolt?

Or would it possibly be better to just leave pet on passive and send him in at the start of fight?

#28 Warlocomotif

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 09:53 PM

I've recently had issues where my pet starts attacking things I don't actually want him attacking. The most recent examples are he'll start attacking oozes on Rotface (I assume because I take some aoe type damage from them and he's "defending" me). Also, he'll often end up (with other pets) attacking the wrong target on Blood Princes fight.

Is there any downside to including /petattack to the macro with Demonic Empowerment and Shadowbolt?

Or would it possibly be better to just leave pet on passive and send him in at the start of fight?


Using /petattack will make it attack your current target. If that's what you want, then sure- add it. I personally wouldnt want that though; on Saurfang I would want it to stay on the boss so I can make it charge a bloodbeast if it's getting too close. On putricide HC I want to be able to put my pet on the green ooze while DPSing the red one in phase changes.
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#29 Crakker

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 09:57 PM

I've recently had issues where my pet starts attacking things I don't actually want him attacking. The most recent examples are he'll start attacking oozes on Rotface (I assume because I take some aoe type damage from them and he's "defending" me). Also, he'll often end up (with other pets) attacking the wrong target on Blood Princes fight.

Is there any downside to including /petattack to the macro with Demonic Empowerment and Shadowbolt?

Or would it possibly be better to just leave pet on passive and send him in at the start of fight?


Your pet will attack LK on transition phases as well. This is where pet micro comes in unfortunately. Adding /petattack is a personal decision, but consider the fact that you might want to cast SB on something that you don't want your pet on at the moment. It's all about your own personal play style.

#30 Vidiz

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 10:31 PM

Using /petattack will make it attack your current target. If that's what you want, then sure- add it. I personally wouldnt want that though; on Saurfang I would want it to stay on the boss so I can make it charge a bloodbeast if it's getting too close. On putricide HC I want to be able to put my pet on the green ooze while DPSing the red one in phase changes.


I totally agree with this. It's for this reason that I only bind /petattack to my curses. In most cases the target I'm attacking won't survive long enough to warrant a quick Curse of Agony, certainly not a Curse of Doom. In the unlikely event that this would happen I use a Shift modifier on each Curse key in case I don't want to include the /petattack. It's handy to have a /petattack macro on your bars as well for fights suck as Putricide with the Volatile Ooze - hit the macro upon spawn and hit the macro again when switching back to the boss.

#31 pRo-Micha

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 05:56 AM

I totally agree with this. It's for this reason that I only bind /petattack to my curses. In most cases the target I'm attacking won't survive long enough to warrant a quick Curse of Agony, certainly not a Curse of Doom. In the unlikely event that this would happen I use a Shift modifier on each Curse key in case I don't want to include the /petattack. It's handy to have a /petattack macro on your bars as well for fights suck as Putricide with the Volatile Ooze - hit the macro upon spawn and hit the macro again when switching back to the boss.


The /petattack macro by itself is redundant as you can just do it with CTRL+1, which is the standard pet attack command.

#32 Vidiz

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 08:39 AM

The /petattack macro by itself is redundant as you can just do it with CTRL+1, which is the standard pet attack command.


I use one of the G-keys on my keyboard. Each to their own.

#33 Warlocomotif

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 10:39 AM

I just finished writing the "mechanics: demonic knowledge" section, I believe all data in there should be correct, however it would be great if someone could verify. I had to backtrack base values from talented values a couple of times and there might have been a couple of rounding errors at the base values.
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#34 Caltiom

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Posted 26 May 2010 - 09:11 AM

Thanks a lot for the great guide, very clean and well structured.

Regarding the rDPS scale values, I'll give it another try in the next days. I hope to have access to a bit more CPU power to increase the iterations for computing the raid_dps. Natehieter was right that the error's in a raid simulation, especially without optimal_raid=1, are quite high. I don't really trust my old results with such few iterations anymore.

#35 xeonoex

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Posted 26 May 2010 - 08:45 PM

Great guide. It's nice to have an update to the old Demonology thread.

Because of all the movement on the ICC fights, I would add Curse of Agony to the priority lists. I use it quite often on fights like Putricide, chasing slimes or moving in P3 with time to die less than 1 minute. I think it's right above Incinerate on the priorities, just only while moving.

#36 Shijoku

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Posted 26 May 2010 - 09:09 PM

As long as you're using CoA just on the slimes, it shouldn't be a problem. But if you're using it on Putricide himself, it's a dps loss if you're overwriting your CoD. Corruption, life tap, death coil (if it's off CD), are all much better choices when moving.

#37 xeonoex

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Posted 26 May 2010 - 10:14 PM

As long as you're using CoA just on the slimes, it shouldn't be a problem. But if you're using it on Putricide himself, it's a dps loss if you're overwriting your CoD. Corruption, life tap, death coil (if it's off CD), are all much better choices when moving.


I'm saying to put up CoA in P3 when CoD does not have time to go off and you can't soulfire because you're moving, not to overwrite CoD.
CoA is also useful on Deathwhisper. Not that it's really a rotation or priority thing, just bad luck. MC'd players often dispell dots and a dispelled CoD does no damage.

The main thing I'm saying is that CoA has a higher DPCT that corruption and proper use of it should be mentioned. I'm not saying "use it over CoD".

#38 Warlocomotif

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Posted 26 May 2010 - 10:23 PM

CoA is worse than SF and obviously worse than CoD- but I can agree that on a movement heavy fight there might be a reasonable place for it. Generally though, demo can fill most of it's movement time with life taps- though I guess not really during decimation. I'll see if I can find a good way to word that into the first post, though honestly there are other things id like to add first.
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#39 Caltiom

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 08:15 AM

Regarding scale factors for raidDPS of a demonology warlock, there are 2 approaches:

1. By simulation in simcraft:

First, I set up a normal raid with players who profit from enhanced spellpower of demonic pact:
MMO-Champion RaidComp
Simulating with 100'000 iterations and smooth_rng=1.
One simulation to calculate the base raidDPS, then one with +100sp on the demonology warlock, one with +100 spi, +200 sta and +100 int.

[TABLE]Base raidDPS | 138211.4183
+100 sp | 138575.6653
+100 spi | 138448.8424
+100 int | 138284.5135
+200 sta | 138313.9254[/TABLE]

Differences:
[TABLE]+100 sp | 364.247
+100 spi | 237.4241
+100 int | 73.0952
+200 sta | 102.5071[/TABLE]

Divided

[TABLE]SP | 3.6425
SPI | 2.3742
INT | 0.7310
STA | 0.5126[/TABLE]





2. by calculating and using predefined scale factors for different casters.

First, we have to calculate how spirit, int and stamina turn into spellpower on the demonology warlock himself:
In the section Mechanics: Demonic Knowledge it states that

A warlock's pet gains stamina and intellect scaling from it's master, inheriting 75% of their master's stamina and 30% of their master's intellect.

and

After all this is done, the Warlock gains 12% of his pet's stamina and intellect as spellpower from [Demonic Knowledge].


We also have to include Blessing of Kings (two times), Fel Vitality and Demonic Embrace

Spirit: This is already found in the guide in Miscellaneous: Stats - Spirit where it states that
1 Spirit -> 0.649 Spellpower

Intellect: 1 Intellect -> 1.1 *1.1 * 1.15 * 0.3 * 0.12 = 0.050094 Spellpower

Stamina: 1 Stamina -> 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.15 * 0.75 * 0.12 = 0.1377585 Spellpower

As we know, [Demonic Pact] turns 1 spellpower into 0.1 spellpower for the whole raid, so in summary we have:

[TABLE]1 spellpower | 0.1 raid spellpower
1 spirit | 0.0649 raid spellpower
1 intellect | 0.0050094 raid spellpower
1 stamina | 0.01377585 raid spellpower[/TABLE]

Now we would have to calculate 1 Raid Spellpower -> k * raidDPS
k would be the sum of all personal spellpower scale factores for every raid member. The good thing about this is that you can calculate this quite easy for your own individual raid.

For my example raid:
Scale Factors:
[TABLE] Druid_T10_58_00_13 | SP=2.0575
Mage_T10_57_03_11 | SP=2.2838
Mage_T10_20_51_00 | SP=2.3064
Paladin_T10_09_05_57_HA | SP=0.2382
Paladin_Tank | SP=0.1444
Priest_T10_13_00_58_277 | SP=2.3355
Shaman_T10_57_14_00 | SP=2.1213
Shaman_T10_19_52_00 | SP=0.8970
Warlock_T10_56_00_15 | SP=2.3106
Warlock_T10_56_00_15 | SP=2.3106[/TABLE]

k=16.9043

[TABLE]1 spellpower | 1.6904 rDPS
1 spirit | 1.0971 rDPS
1 intellect | 0.0846 rDPS
1 stamina | 0.2329 rDPS[/TABLE]



Keep in mind that these factors here just represent the DPS gain of the raid without the warlock himself, so you would have to add the personal scale factors of the demonology warlock.
Warlockt10005615rdps_test Sta=0.2733 Int=0.6371 Spi=1.2494 SP=1.9610 Hit=4.2402 Crit=1.4200 Haste=1.9631

Sum of these 2 values:
[TABLE]SP | 3.6514
SPI | 2.3465
INT | 0.7218
STA | 0.5062[/TABLE]


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The values seem to match quite good - keep in mind that in the simulation a gap of +100 is used, instead of an infinite small one.


Edit:
I found my error, i accidentally used +200 stam, so the simulation value is now also 0.5.

Edit 16. July 2010:
Changed the calculated spirit scale value from 2.3460 to 2.3465=1.2494+1.0971. A simple addition error, thank a lot to Bahlshaab.

#40 Warlocomotif

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 10:35 AM

I suspect it might be that sometime during WotLK blizzard modified warlock pet stamina scaling, due to the fact that demonology didn't become "mainstream interesting" I think we might not have realized a demo lock's benefit from this at the time.

This is however just a theory, I haven't checked simc code to confirm. Here's my personal data:

By a gear difference of:
1439 Warlock Stamina, the pet gained 1242 stam (that is *0.75*1.15).
1281 Warlock Intellect, the pet gained 442 int (that is *0.3*1.15).

The *1.15 = Fel Vitality, the *0.75 and *0.3 are the rates the pets scale at.

[edit]

Wait, that makes no sense. Blizzard buffed pet stamina scaling, but simc calculates the stamina value far above where our calculations put our stamina value?

[edit 2] Okay, your edit makes sense. Still slightly off but close enough.
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