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Demonology, releasing the demon in you.


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#41 CaseyTheRetard

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Posted 28 May 2010 - 03:05 PM

Stamina: 1 Stamina -> 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.15 * 0.7 * 0.12 = 0.1285746 Spellpower


You used 0.7 here instead of 0.75 for the pet scaling from warlock's stamina. Changing that scaling factor results in

Stamina: 1 Stamina -> 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.15 * 0.75 * 0.12 = 0.1377585 Spellpower

For a raid scaling value of k * 0.1377585 * 0.1 = 0.2329 rDPS, which combines with the pDPS value for stamina to end up with 0.2329 + 0.2733 = 0.5062. This scaling factor agrees a little more with the one obtained from method 1.

#42 Warlocomotif

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Posted 28 May 2010 - 05:17 PM

You used 0.7 here instead of 0.75 for the pet scaling from warlock's stamina. Changing that scaling factor results in

Stamina: 1 Stamina -> 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.15 * 0.75 * 0.12 = 0.1377585 Spellpower

For a raid scaling value of k * 0.1377585 * 0.1 = 0.2329 rDPS, which combines with the pDPS value for stamina to end up with 0.2329 + 0.2733 = 0.5062. This scaling factor agrees a little more with the one obtained from method 1.


The number we're expecting would be 0.5126 (since we *know* we made the mistake of not accounting for the double delta), we're at about 0.0064 from that- which is close enough. I think it's reasonable to say our numbers and simcraft's numbers are in agreement with eachother.

I'm trying to get some statistics on raid setups from WoL, based on that I'll make a setup for the OP.

It would however be nice to have some discussion on how to quatify the value of this buff for healers.
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#43 Caltiom

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Posted 28 May 2010 - 08:14 PM

Thanks a lot CaseyTheRetard.

I'm not sure if discussing spellpower gains for healers is something for this thread & guide, since it's just nothing objective and calculable.
My personal opinion is that it really doesn't matter if I get 450 or 470 spellpower from the warlock - it may be a nice bonus, but the main concern for a healer in the actual fight is his mana, and how to use his repertoire of spells, the right one at the right time.
Don't get me wrong - spellpower is useful for every healer and certainly not wasted, and 1 demonology warlock should be part of the raid group. The step from 280 to ~450 spellpower is a big one, and can be useful. An example to underlay this would be to counterheal infest with PW:S in 25 lk hc, where even with the 15% buff the shields don't suffice on classes without damage reduction, or even a malus (fire mages, fury warriors).

But the difference between a demonology warlock equiped for ego-dps and one for raid-dps is just so extremly low and meanigless for healers, it is certainly nothing to be concerned with.

#44 Ezzergeezer

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 11:21 AM

A very nice write up.

Couple of questions.

I'm currently running a slight variation to the recommended build, replacing glyph of quick decay with glyph of immolate and changing some talent points around so that I have improved immolate.

I've noticed some good results on this build and my dps is getting closer to our top affliction lock in the raid. I was interested to see that this was not recommended though.

So the question is, am I just noticing an increase in my dps as a result of something else or is this build a loss of dps ?

The other question I have is used of corruption during blood lust when not in the execute phase. I see my cast time for incinerate drop to 0.9s and shadow bolt drop to about 1.3s. In this scenario would it be better to just spam shadow bolts and not bother keeping up corruption for the molten core effect ?

Thanks

#45 Tinava

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 04:11 PM

A very nice write up.

Couple of questions.

I've noticed some good results on this build and my dps is getting closer to our top affliction lock in the raid. I was interested to see that this was not recommended though.

So the question is, am I just noticing an increase in my dps as a result of something else or is this build a loss of dps ?

The other question I have is used of corruption during blood lust when not in the execute phase. I see my cast time for incinerate drop to 0.9s and shadow bolt drop to about 1.3s. In this scenario would it be better to just spam shadow bolts and not bother keeping up corruption for the molten core effect ?

Thanks


Isn't the point of demo to be a buff spec? Demo's received some nice buffs so it isn't JUST a buffbot, but it still has that component to it, so I'd say you want to stick with buffing the raid more than yourself.

For the second question, corruption during the execute phase is a must (unless molten core is already up) because it boosts soulfire, which is what you should be using in place of shadowbolt under 35 percent. Only use SB at that point to keep the crit debuff up on the boss.

#46 Guest_agnos80_*

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 07:14 PM

I've noticed some good results on this build and my dps is getting closer to our top affliction lock in the raid. I was interested to see that this was not recommended though.

So the question is, am I just noticing an increase in my dps as a result of something else or is this build a loss of dps ?


Your increase in dps could also be due to aquiring better gear, using a better rotation (or utilizing your current rotation better), etc. and not attributed to spec/glyph changes. Losing Quick Decay looks like a DPS loss as both Immolate and Corruption track ~5% of Meta/Ruin's total dps; gaining +10% periodic Immolate and/or +6% periodic Immolate damage seems worse than increasing the number of Corruption ticks and therefore the number of available procs for Molten Core. IIRC, IDT is a higher DPS gain than Aftermath as well as increasing the odds of an earlier Demonic Pact proc for significantly increased rDPS.

#47 thetrueavatar

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 11:14 AM

Very nice guide. I already create a threat to point this guild in my current guild forum.
However, if you have some times could you add some comment over the 0/56/15 specs. I have seen many people who believe that IDT is useless sincre DP change(which is not true I know) and try to put these 2 point in suppression of aftermath.

#48 Callandor

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 03:24 PM

I was trying to figure out something about Demonology's execute phase and target switching - namely if you deliberately Shadow Bolt an add or something at <35% health that is in no way important (so the damage is essentially wasted) would it be worth it for the 10 seconds of Decimation proc. Using DPET's for my character given by SimCraft I found this:

Ignoring the possibility of a Molten Core proc

DPET Shadow Bolt * Y + Av. Damage of 1 Shadow Bolt = DPET Soul Fire * Y, where Y = arbitrary amount of time spent casting spell (with or without Decimation)
7688Y + 13656 = 13320Y
13656 = 5632Y
Y = 2.424

So if you can make use of the Decimation proc for > 2.424 seconds then it is worth it to do this, and given that Decimation is a 10 seconds buff this will almost always be the case. The main example of this I am thinking of is on Lich King you can SB the Shambling Horrors or Drudge Ghouls, which is definitely wasted damage, but it will increase you single-target DPS on the Lich King.

The other thing I wanted to consider was whether it is a DPS gain to hang on to the Molten Core buff and not consume it with Incinerate if you are about to enter execute phase and can use MC to benefit Soul Fire instead. If you assume MC doesn't proc again whilst you are holding on to the buff (which is definitely something to consider) then the maths boils down to:

In order for this to be a DPS gain

DPET of Molten Core Soul Fire - DPET Soul Fire > DPET Incinerate - DPET Shadow Bolt

Which unfortuantely I have no idea how to work this out with raid buffs and don't have the inclination to figure it out from the test dummies :P. Simcraft GUI won't give an indication of the 2 DPET's of Soul Fire since it combines them into one value. I would be interested to see if anyone could come up with some solid numbers to support or deny this.

#49 Warlocomotif

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 04:08 PM

Those are 2 interesting questions, though for Shadowbolting an off-target, you could use shadow bolt rank 1 (for the reduced cast time).
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#50 Ezzergeezer

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 04:16 PM

Isn't the point of demo to be a buff spec? Demo's received some nice buffs so it isn't JUST a buffbot, but it still has that component to it, so I'd say you want to stick with buffing the raid more than yourself.

For the second question, corruption during the execute phase is a must (unless molten core is already up) because it boosts soulfire, which is what you should be using in place of shadowbolt under 35 percent. Only use SB at that point to keep the crit debuff up on the boss.


I think you've misunderstood my post.

The changes I made involve removing points from Improved Demonic Tactics and switching to Aftermath make no difference to raid dps. The pet typically crits in the first few seconds of an encounter (25 man raid with buffs) and with the new demonic pact mechanics you can pretty much guarantee to keep the buff up 100% provided your pet is alive and hitting things.

Also your reply to my second point, you seem to have misread what I said. ".... when not in the execute phase."

I agree that you would want to keep corruption up in the execution phase, but under BL when NOT in the execution phase I am left wondering. Essentially you have a lower dpct spell (corrpuption) that you keep up to gain Molten Core essentially. But my molten core procs under BL are giving me cast times under the 1s GCD, so I am losing some of the benefit. As shadow bolts have a higher dpct and under BL my cast time is at 1.3s, is it better to cast those, ignore molten core procs and not bother refreshing corruption (at least till BL wears off).

#51 Ezzergeezer

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 04:22 PM

IIRC, IDT is a higher DPS gain than Aftermath as well as increasing the odds of an earlier Demonic Pact proc for significantly increased rDPS.


Is the increased pet crit really better dps than aftermath ? The raid dps does not seem to be a problem as the pet crits pretty quickly in a 25 man raid, especially as I macro Demonic Empowerment to my spells meaning the chance of an early crit goes up.

#52 Brotherbear

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 04:32 PM

Those are 2 interesting questions, though for Shadowbolting an off-target, you could use shadow bolt rank 1 (for the reduced cast time).


Our demo lock done a variation of this on heroic Blood Prince Council to very good effect and does some truly ludicrous damage on that fight. He has said it's harder to do consistently on other fights, but since two of the three bosses are consistently at "1%" he spends essentially the entire fight under the effect of Decimation.

#53 CaseyTheRetard

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 04:41 PM

Using my warlock (mostly 251 with a few 264 pieces) and the latest Simulationcraft actionlist:
  • Baseline DPS: 11079
  • DPS with 2/2 Aftermath instead of 2/2 IDT: 10990
  • DPS with Immolate glyph instead of Quick Decay: 11008
  • DPS with 2/2 Aftermath and Immolate glyph instead of Quick Decay: 10921

Even ignoring the affect of dropping points in IDT on DP uptime, Aftermath is less DPS than IDT.
The Immolate glyph increases DPS of the DoT portion of Immolate by 10%, whereas Quick Decay increases the DPS of Corruption by your haste. Given that we all have significantly more than 10% haste, and that Immolate and Corruption DoTs have similar power, it stands to reason that Quick Decay outperforms glyph of Immolate.

I will grant you that the new numbers for DP - 45 second duration, 20 second cooldown - make IDT unnecessary to maintain DP uptime. The Felguard has 45 - 20 = 25 seconds during which to get a crit to keep DP from dropping, which should be plenty of time for any reasonable crit chance regardless of IDT.

DPET of Incinerate is 8822 vs. 6785 for Shadow Bolt. For Shadow Bolt to beat Incinerate due to haste effects, Incinerate's cast time would need to be hasted to 6785 / 8822 = 0.77 seconds.

#54 Crakker

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 05:27 PM

I was trying to figure out something about Demonology's execute phase and target switching - namely if you deliberately Shadow Bolt an add or something at <35% health that is in no way important (so the damage is essentially wasted) would it be worth it for the 10 seconds of Decimation proc. Using DPET's for my character given by SimCraft I found this:

Ignoring the possibility of a Molten Core proc

DPET Shadow Bolt * Y + Av. Damage of 1 Shadow Bolt = DPET Soul Fire * Y, where Y = arbitrary amount of time spent casting spell (with or without Decimation)
7688Y + 13656 = 13320Y
13656 = 5632Y
Y = 2.424

So if you can make use of the Decimation proc for > 2.424 seconds then it is worth it to do this, and given that Decimation is a 10 seconds buff this will almost always be the case. The main example of this I am thinking of is on Lich King you can SB the Shambling Horrors or Drudge Ghouls, which is definitely wasted damage, but it will increase you single-target DPS on the Lich King.

The other thing I wanted to consider was whether it is a DPS gain to hang on to the Molten Core buff and not consume it with Incinerate if you are about to enter execute phase and can use MC to benefit Soul Fire instead. If you assume MC doesn't proc again whilst you are holding on to the buff (which is definitely something to consider) then the maths boils down to:

In order for this to be a DPS gain

DPET of Molten Core Soul Fire - DPET Soul Fire > DPET Incinerate - DPET Shadow Bolt

Which unfortuantely I have no idea how to work this out with raid buffs and don't have the inclination to figure it out from the test dummies :P. Simcraft GUI won't give an indication of the 2 DPET's of Soul Fire since it combines them into one value. I would be interested to see if anyone could come up with some solid numbers to support or deny this.


**EDIT** Just noticed Brotherbear mentioned some of this a few posts above. Not trying to steal anyone's thunder.

This one does seem tough to model. I find myself using the trick you mention quite a bit depending on the boss fight. This works on anything with adds, and works on the Blood Princes as well (since two of them sit at <25% HP the whole fight). Sometimes this happens by accident when the buff hops to a different Prince.

Sort of a spin off of your secont point ... Another idea for Blood Princes specifically would be to throw a Level 1 SB at one of the other Princes when you get an MC proc and consume all three charges with SF -OR- attempt to keep Decimation up the entire fight. This one might be a bit easier to model, but it is situational to one fight.

Thinking of the other add killing fights in ICC, they are mostly add burns (Saurfang, LDW, Marrowgar (Bone Spikes), PP, etc...) and its less feasible to control your Decimation procs. I do enjoy long Decimation proc chains on LDW adds though.

I will definitely have to try this out on LK, I usually stick to my standard rotation during P1.

#55 Genomos

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 06:07 AM

Is there ever a time that a 0/56/15 demolock would want to gem the orange sp/crit gem over the orange sp/haste gem? For example when you have around 1400 haste.

#56 Brackrazor

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 09:19 AM

Is there ever a time that a 0/56/15 demolock would want to gem the orange sp/crit gem over the orange sp/haste gem? For example when you have around 1400 haste.


Already answered, short answer was no.


Then another question :
Some nice maths has been done on affli/destro locks to show what to do to burn adds as quick as possible.

What about demo locks ?
What's the most efficient way to deal with adds that will live up to 10s ? Or up to 15-20s ?

#57 Vidiz

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 11:26 AM

Already answered, short answer was no.


Then another question :
Some nice maths has been done on affli/destro locks to show what to do to burn adds as quick as possible.

What about demo locks ?
What's the most efficient way to deal with adds that will live up to 10s ? Or up to 15-20s ?


If an add was going to live for 20 seconds, I'd probably Corruption for extra MC procs, Immolate for extra 4pt10 procs and SB spam it until dead.

#58 Genomos

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 11:43 AM

My next question, As a Demolock 0/56/15 focusing on rDPS, what is the min sp socket bonus you should get to choose Purified Dreadstone over Runed Cardinal Ruby? Is it 5 sp bonus or would it be 7 like the orange slots?

#59 emuron

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 12:40 PM

My next question, As a Demolock 0/56/15 focusing on rDPS, what is the min sp socket bonus you should get to choose Purified Dreadstone over Runed Cardinal Ruby? Is it 5 sp bonus or would it be 7 like the orange slots?


By doing some maths provided in the initial post.

Spirit * 1.1 * 1.03 * ((0.3 * 1.3) + 0.2)

Purified Dreadstone = 12 sp and 10 Spirit

10 * 1.1 * 1.03 * ((0.3 * 1.3) + 0.2) = 6.667SP

In order to be beneficial the SP increase has to be over 23.

23-(12+6.667) = 4.333 SP socket bonus needed to warrant a Purified Dreadstone in a gem socket. Any blue gem socket with 5+ sp (the majority of them in ICC) Warrants a Purified Dreadstone

Also, would it be worth mentioning in the initial post some more raid orientated aspects of the spec?

For example, using a Rank 1 Hellfire prepull/Potion of Wild Magic in order to proc your trinkets, capes, and ring to maximize the amount of SP buff you give initially off demonic pact. However this might just come under "Common Sense"

#60 Pympinmidget

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 11:33 PM

Warlocomotif, kudos on an amazing thread!

I'd just like to suggest adding the use of a macro combining [Flame Cap] on top of [Greater Wild Magic Potion] during Decimation phase (if you haven't had to use a Healthstone, of course). They (pots and flame caps) don't share cooldowns, and the added 80 SP (to fire dmg) for 1 minute is pretty nice!

Thanks again for an amazing thread. Just linking this will save me tons of time the next time someone asks me about playing as Demo :D




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