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Demonology, releasing the demon in you.


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#101 Jmickey

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 12:49 PM

Profiler - Wowhead
Ruby Sanctum Best in slot. I had to do the math manually because Ruby Sanctum items don't show up on wowhead scalefactor lists yet, and we do not yet have enough data to truely conclusively say it's best in slot- however it's a pretty reasonable conclusion to draw really.

Conclusion:
= +42.9319 DPS
= +10.3459 DPS
= -84.6521 DPS


I would just like to clarify that what your saying here is that the stats gain from these new items is an overall rDPS gain (assuming a 25m raid) despite the loss of spirit from the ICC items that were there before?

#102 Warlocomotif

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 04:06 PM

I would just like to clarify that what your saying here is that the stats gain from these new items is an overall rDPS gain (assuming a 25m raid) despite the loss of spirit from the ICC items that were there before?


The personal DPS gain is larger than the loss from a reduced demonic pact. Ultimately rDPS goes up because your pDPS goes up so much.
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#103 infamouslink

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 08:25 PM

In order to get everything out of the engineering profession, saronite bombs should be used during instant casts. In the original post you seem to underestimate them by saying it will take some time to use. However, if used correctly during GCD (during an instant) it will consume no time at all and just add extra damage.

As a demo lock, you could macro saronite bombs into Curse of Doom since they have the exact same cooldown. In some fights however it would be more wise to use the saronite bombs on multiple targets such as during bone spikes on marrowgar or blood beasts on saurfang.

I don't play demo in 25 mans so I haven't tested this in a raid but after some rough testing on a dummy (5-10mins worth), It seems metamorphosis increases saronite bomb damage. I assume t10 4pc does also.

#104 Warlocomotif

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 12:24 AM

In order to get everything out of the engineering profession, saronite bombs should be used during instant casts. In the original post you seem to underestimate them by saying it will take some time to use. However, if used correctly during GCD (during an instant) it will consume no time at all and just add extra damage.

As a demo lock, you could macro saronite bombs into Curse of Doom since they have the exact same cooldown. In some fights however it would be more wise to use the saronite bombs on multiple targets such as during bone spikes on marrowgar or blood beasts on saurfang.

I don't play demo in 25 mans so I haven't tested this in a raid but after some rough testing on a dummy (5-10mins worth), It seems metamorphosis increases saronite bomb damage. I assume t10 4pc does also.


Thanks, I wasn't sure if you could use them in this way, I'll modify the first post to reflect this when I get some time.
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#105 Isarac

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 05:56 PM

The personal DPS gain is larger than the loss from a reduced demonic pact. Ultimately rDPS goes up because your pDPS goes up so much.


This is key point to remember that pDPS is part of rDPS. However, with the new Ruby Sanctum items that no one has yet, the overall raid may benefit most by that item going to a different caster class, while you keep your spirit.

#106 Tahapenes

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 11:18 PM

This is key point to remember that pDPS is part of rDPS. However, with the new Ruby Sanctum items that no one has yet, the overall raid may benefit most by that item going to a different caster class, while you keep your spirit.


Not true in this case. Before accounting for buffs (Kings, Fel Armor) Bracers of Fiery Night has 19 SP on Death Surgeon's Sleeves at ilvls 284 and 277 respectively (Runed in BoFN and Purified in DSS). After you figure in the buffs, BoFN still has about an 7 to 8 SP lead on DSS. Once you include Glyph of Life Tap into the mix, the spell power difference is going to be a wash (meaning the raid is going to get at most 0.1 to 0.2 SP if you're wearing DSS over BoFN with DP proced). If you figure you have 7 DPS casters along with 5 healers, that rDPS and rHPS increase is going to be under the Warlock's pDPS by going with Bracers of Firey Night.

#107 Warlocomotif

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 12:06 AM

Not true in this case. Before accounting for buffs (Kings, Fel Armor) Bracers of Fiery Night has 19 SP on Death Surgeon's Sleeves at ilvls 284 and 277 respectively (Runed in BoFN and Purified in DSS). After you figure in the buffs, BoFN still has about an 7 to 8 SP lead on DSS. Once you include Glyph of Life Tap into the mix, the spell power difference is going to be a wash (meaning the raid is going to get at most 0.1 to 0.2 SP if you're wearing DSS over BoFN with DP proced). If you figure you have 7 DPS casters along with 5 healers, that rDPS and rHPS increase is going to be under the Warlock's pDPS by going with Bracers of Firey Night.


gives us:
68 Spi from item (Before kings)
10 Spi from gem (Before Kings)
12 Sp from gem
5 Sp from Socket bonus
110 Sp from item

3.91 sp from intellect through Demonic Knowledge (After Kings)
10.75 sp from stamina through Demonic Knowledge (After Kings)
50.62 sp from Spirit = (68+10) * 1.1 * ((0.3 * 1.3) + 0.2)
Total: 110+12+5+50.62+10.75+3.91=192.28

gives us:
23 Sp from gem
5 Sp from Socket bonus
118 Sp from item

4.16 Sp from intellect through Demonic Knowledge (After Kings)
11.43 Sp from Stamina through Demonic Knowledge (After Kings)

Total: 118+23+5+4.16+11.43=161.59

If the only thing that mattered truely was your spellpower, then Death Surgeon's Sleeves would be best. Your personal DPS however also matters, which is why Bracers of Fiery Night are in fact best in slot.

You are however entirely missing the point of what the person above you was saying; put simple: If I were to pick up this item, or really the BiS profile; then that raid group would gain 42.93 DPS. This is a relatively small DPS gain, and it's a small gain because we trade 1 very valueable stat (spirit) for a slightly less valueable stat (haste).

Your raid will however also have many other casters, if for example an affliction lock, fire mage or shadow priest would pick this item up- they would gain more DPS than we would, and ultimately the raid would gain more DPS (seeing as, just like us- theyre also part of the raid).

In short; although picking this up is technically a DPS gain for your raid, someone else picking this item up would likely be a larger DPS gain for your raid.
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#108 hoeding

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 08:46 PM

In regards to DPS vs rDPS, I made an openoffice spreadsheet that allows you to quickly compare items using your own simcraft numbers and what gemming to use. It is as accurate as the information in this thread afaik.

To use it simply fill in the gray background cells with your information, and fill in the gray comparision rows with how many of each gem or item you want to compare. (in the sheet I uploaded I have bracers of fiery night and death surgeons sleeves compared to each other along with 2 different gemmings for DSS)

https://docs.google....4ZmIwYWYw&hl=en

#109 CaseyTheRetard

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 04:56 PM

In regards to DPS vs rDPS, I made an openoffice spreadsheet that allows you to quickly compare items using your own simcraft numbers and what gemming to use. It is as accurate as the information in this thread afaik.


There's an error in the formula that calculates raid DPS value in cells D12:V12. For non-spellpower stats, you are using the coefficients for raid derived spellpower, but then multiplying the contribution of all stats by 10%. Since the 10% is already baked into the coefficients, you are pessimizing the contribution of non-spellpower stats by a factor of 10. It would be simplest to change all of these formulas to e.g. "=SUMPRODUCT($C$4:$C$10;D4:D10)". You already went to the trouble to calculate that nice stat weight vector, recreating it in all the other calculations only opens the door for errors to creep in.

#110 hoeding

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 08:17 PM

There's an error in the formula that calculates raid DPS value in cells D12:V12. For non-spellpower stats, you are using the coefficients for raid derived spellpower, but then multiplying the contribution of all stats by 10%. Since the 10% is already baked into the coefficients, you are pessimizing the contribution of non-spellpower stats by a factor of 10. It would be simplest to change all of these formulas to e.g. "=SUMPRODUCT($C$4:$C$10;D4:D10)". You already went to the trouble to calculate that nice stat weight vector, recreating it in all the other calculations only opens the door for errors to creep in.



Actually, I think what happened was the *.1 should have been to the right of the bracket, putting the 10% value on spellpower alone (D$5). Another thing I noticed was that the comparison totals in C17,18,20,21,23,24 don't sum that last column on the spreadsheet. Is there a way to sum everything to the right of a cell?

Updated sheet:
Openoffice format http://spreadsheets....SMFE&output=ods
Excel format http://spreadsheets....SMFE&output=xls

#111 Eiffeltower

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 01:42 PM

What would be your take on running with no 4PT10 set bonus in order to obtain 277 chest and hands with spirit? I am currently thinking about this for my raid's demolock....

Blood Princes Robe : Sanguine Silk Robes
Blood Princes Gloves : San'layn Ritualist Gloves

I have been unable to calculate pDPS increase vs rDPs increase. Myself (apologies). The mechanics are clear to me, but I have issues with the numbers.

Edit : simple answer = I won't get enough hit rating without the hands, so this Q is closed.

#112 Toxie

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 06:00 PM

Hi! Im a long time reader and now first time poster.

I know that its not too long now till Cataclysm comes, but theres a question thats nagging me when it comes to ICC raiding. I am currently playing demo as my main specc, and have affliction as OS thats because affli is supposed to deliver more dps then the demo specc, however sometimes i dont have any choise (if our other demo lock isnt in the raid) i must/should go demo for the entire raid.

Theres some fights in ICC that serve some major casting pushbacks, and that becomes pretty severe when you have no puchback reduction like in the standard demo specc, so wouldnt taking the 2 points from Improved Demonic Tactics and place them on Intensity instead be a decent dps increase ? For just these fights, festergut, blood queen, and maybe even sindragosa.

The simulation program i use dont seem to support pushback reduction, and i guess changing the specc to no points in IDT might result in that the buff falls off completely in a fight altough the felguard is always attacking its target ?!

#113 CaseyTheRetard

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 07:26 PM

Theres some fights in ICC that serve some major casting pushbacks, and that becomes pretty severe when you have no puchback reduction like in the standard demo specc, so wouldnt taking the 2 points from Improved Demonic Tactics and place them on Intensity instead be a decent dps increase ? For just these fights, festergut, blood queen, and maybe even sindragosa.


The only fight in ICC that I would characterize as having "major casting pushback" would be the trash before Lady Deathwhisper. Occurences of pushback in the three fights you reference are infrequent enough that you would see a DPS loss taking points from any other talent to put them into Intensity,

#114 rawrschach

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 11:17 PM

I use the following Macro for Heroism:

#showtooltip Metamorphosis
/use Potion of Wild Magic
/cast Demonic Empowerment
/cast Metamorphosis
/cast Immolation Aura

...it does everything in that list except Immolation Aura. Any suggestions why it doesn't cast Immolation Aura?

#115 Lucinis

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 11:27 PM

I use the following Macro for Heroism:

#showtooltip Metamorphosis
/use Potion of Wild Magic
/cast Demonic Empowerment
/cast Metamorphosis
/cast Immolation Aura

...it does everything in that list except Immolation Aura. Any suggestions why it doesn't cast Immolation Aura?

I use a similar macro (same thing minus the potion) and you just have to hit it twice. The first time you use it it tries to use all 4 things at the same time, which normally would work just fine, however Immolation Aura requires you to be in Meta already, so because it tries to use it at the same time it casts Meta, you aren't in Meta at the time you cast it.

#116 Naforce

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 09:22 AM

You shouldn't just pop immolation aura as soon as you enter meta, it's better to wait until you get some procs, specially the 4pt10 proc!

#117 vo1os

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 10:08 PM

I use the following Macro for Heroism:

#showtooltip Metamorphosis
/use Potion of Wild Magic
/cast Demonic Empowerment
/cast Metamorphosis
/cast Immolation Aura

...it does everything in that list except Immolation Aura. Any suggestions why it doesn't cast Immolation Aura?


After you enter meta - there is a delay about .5 sec when the Immolation Aura is still inactive. So the better choice is to start another cast(depending on your rotation) just after Meta. And activate IA after 4t10 proc, or it it doesn't proc 16 sec before meta falls.

#118 Pympinmidget

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 10:29 PM

I use the following Macro for Heroism:

#showtooltip Metamorphosis
/use Potion of Wild Magic
/cast Demonic Empowerment
/cast Metamorphosis
/cast Immolation Aura

...it does everything in that list except Immolation Aura. Any suggestions why it doesn't cast Immolation Aura?



Add "/use Flame Cap" to that macro, too! (It doesn't share potion cooldown or GCD :dance: ) And the Immolation aura question is answered above.

#119 xeonoex

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 06:38 AM

I'm not sure if this has been pointed out yet, but the stun from Aura of Foreboding is not on the same DR as controlled stuns, so it could be a free 3 second stun on valks, I haven't tried it on the valks to see if they move out of range though in time. I assume they do though because it's only a 4 yard radius.




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